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CS Owners-CCM disks

Discussion in '360/430' started by tonyh, Mar 31, 2006.

  1. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 23, 2002
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    Tony H
    It's been posted on another Forum that disks are required to be changed after 2nd pad change . Can anyone confirm pls? Here's gist of |Ferrari UK's advice

    Q. Do you need to change the discs when fitting a second set of brake pads, and would it invalidate the warranty if not done?
    A. Yes, it is recommended by the factory that these are changed per axle when fitting a second set of pads. And yes it will invalidate the warranty of the vehicle if they are not changed with the 2nd set of brake pads per disc.

    Q. Is there any directive on how long the discs should last then?
    A. The factory testing concluded that there showed signs of 17 times more use of a brake disc than a normal metal one, but we have replaced a few under warranty and also for Pilota cars, but it's mostly due to the cheese grater effect when a disc dowsn't get a cool down lap on a track as it creates particles to stick to the disc, so when they take off again it pulls chucks out of the disc essentially.

    Q. So were these all track cars and how could you reduce the chance of the cheese grater effect on your pads?
    A. Well, some were customers cars used on the track and some were soley track cars but road registered, say a car that has been used for 2000miles on a track is a different type of wear to a road car at 12000miles, most road cars when on the track use the traction control also to create high wear on the disc so that won't help, better to use the lower modes for track use.
    __________________
     
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  3. nerd

    nerd F1 Rookie

    Oct 12, 2003
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    RSK
    I have no idea of the basis for Ferrari UK's comments. I think the CCM brake fear started when Ferrari offered a "free" replacement set of rotors for the Enzo if there were issues. Additionally, for those taking the Enzo owners' driving class, the factory performed a disk swap for the class and then reinstalled the owner's disks at the end of the class.

    I know of no wear issue on the Enzo or CS rotors in the US. The "wear-out" of CS rotors is determined by high temperature heat cycles as monitored by the on-board computer and senors.

    Anybody? Anybody? Buehler?
     
  4. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
    2,249
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    Peter Mann

    R U B B I S H
    On my first CS did 11000 kms of track total road equiv was 75 000 Kms (almost 50 000 miles) changed pads 12 times - Discs are fine. Car bought and serviced by Ferrari West Europe plus I was a "Testing Partner" making reports to the factory.

    The warranty is just fine - thank you. On 2nd CS have gone through 5 sets - no problems AT ALL.

    Regarding how long the disc will last - no one knows and it depends on how they are used. I know of only one car that had its discs replaced at 20 000 kms - mostly track.

    If in doubt goet a trustworthy (ie not UK) Ferrari dealer to measure the disc wear.

    As usual the good old UK dealer is trying to get you to spend 20 000 euros on a new set of un-needed discs!!

    Try the French - they are so much more honest, surprisingly!
     
  5. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Dec 23, 2002
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    Hi Peter and thank you .:)
     
  6. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    Peter Mann

    Anytime! If you need any help - just call on me. Are you going to come to the Ferrari Days at Spa?
     
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  8. CUE99T

    CUE99T Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2004
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    Paul
    Peter it was myself that posted that on the other forum as when I spoke to Ferrari UK Tech Dept, they gave that advice.

    My concern is that as a "proper" race track tester you're the wrong type of person to show high wear as you most likely use the track modes properly and do cool down laps which would help wear by both of those.

    The high wear would be caused by poor driving in high traction control modes, and also by not using cool down laps etc to not create a cheese grater effect on the disc/pad.

    Could you advise of your driving mode/style?

    I have a question for you -

    Ferrari told me that the disc wear is measured by an algorythm in the dash software and cannot be visiually worked out if they need replaced, do you believe this statement?

    Kind regards
    Paul
     
  9. nerd

    nerd F1 Rookie

    Oct 12, 2003
    2,509
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    RSK
    You are correct that one of the on-board computers monitors heat cycles and will declare the rotor "worn-out" before a catastrophic stress crack forms. This is a different failure mode than noted earlier in the thread.
     
  10. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    Peter Mann
    Paul,

    Obviously driving techniques affect disc and pad wear as they do many of the other components of any car. There are those that "stamp" the brake pedal with massive wear resulting.

    With the CCM brakes you really need to review your braking techniqus. With traditional brakes oyu "shhot" the brake pedal and release, with CCM discs you do not need to exerce the same pressure and one find oneself braking less "violently" and for shorter distances.

    THe algorythm is basically this: the early cars (if not all) were programmed to set off a warning light at 10 000 kms. Ferrari checked my discs and reset the computer...............as you can see a very complicated algorythm! The discs can be measured for wear.

    The only weakness is if the disc gets chipped (gravel or the like) - then you have to change it.
     
  11. 360CS

    360CS F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,641
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    Joe J
    Peter my conclusions from how i see it. as posted on another forum!!!



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Theres so many stories going around about these brakes that i have found some positive info that i feel makes the most sense.


    The CS has a very complex Electro- hydraulic ECU system that operates and monitors the braking performance and cycles on the cars braking system. This is preset in the system with a border line limit in relation to the "DISCS" and the wear of in relation to how the car is used. .

    There is a Warning lamp that illuminates if this limit is reached on the discs which is set off by the excessive use of the brakes ie number and force of deceleration cycles etc.

    This lamp comes on if extream use of the brakes is used ie racing the car on track (continuously i assume) the lamp glows as "Brake Service" on the dashboard. This warning is specifically related to the discs on the CS , I dont believe the 360m has this feature, and this system is fitted to the F430 if CCMs are fitted as an option.

    So if you have 3 sets of pads and the boarderline is not met ...ie you only use the brakes in moderation even on track whos to say that the discs must be replaced after the second set of Pads.

    It appears to me that this monitoring system is specifically to ensure that you have the Discs inspected if the warning lamp illuminates warning of excessive wear, similar to pads

    So why have a Monitoring & Warning system for a component that needs to be replaced depending on the use of Pad wear ... Simple it dont .

    Theres always someone wanting to take the cash of you if you want to spend it!!!!
     
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  13. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    Joe,

    I think that you will find that the reality is the "DISC" warning light comes on at 10 000 kms. THere is no super sophisticated monitoring system.....this is what Ferrari told me when I was an official Tester. Now, there is a risk and it is the following:

    You need to change your pads the minute the warning light comes on - especially if you are on a track - and even if it appears that there is plenty of meat left on the pad. The reason is that the last part of the pad tends to be more abrasive and can damage the disc more easily. We di complain a great deal about this in the beginning as in the "early days" pads were twice the price they are now and we were getting through a set in the space of 300 kms of track. The factory has since reviewed the positioning of the "wear" point and lowered prices by half - so you see we do get listened to occasionally!!

    One final point that I forgot to mention previously: If you leave the ASR on when on a track you will eat through rear pads like there is no tomorrow as the ASR acts on both the engine and the rear brakes. While this is cheaper than having an off, it encourages those who need to , to learn there car control - especially in the wet.

    Best

    Peter
     
  14. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    For those of us who aren't gifted/God behind the wheel of a CS, given the CS tyres performance in the wet, you need to consider if it is worth even leaving the pits if the track is wet.
     
  15. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    Ian,

    It is always worth leaving the pits! It is the only way to learn! Just go really carefully , leave the ASR on and do not put the car in race (keep the suspension slightly softer).....

    None of us are Gods behind the wheel - if we were we would be sitting in a 248 and not a CS and would be getting paid instead of paying!!!!

    Wait for Eau Rouge in the wet!! Redefines scarry!!!!
     
  16. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
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    I can definitely wait as it scares me already and I have never done it.
     
  17. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    Peter Mann

    Friday 23rd June..................................
     
  18. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
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    Or 2 August and have a Fiorano Ferrari instructor?
     
  19. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    August 2???

    The w/e of 28/30 July is the Ferrari Festival at Paul Ricard HTTT
     
  20. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    Yes but I am looking at having somebody with me to reduce fear levels and improve abilities.

    www.fioranoferrari.com
     
  21. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    Especially as I have just downloaded in car footage of a 360 challenge around Spa!
     
  22. tedwentz

    tedwentz Karting

    Aug 29, 2004
    64
    Mid Atlantic USA
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    Ted Wentz
    What are they currently charging per axle set in Europe? Our price here in the States is $1700 per axle set.
    Also have you heard anything about a harder pad that was developed for the F430 Challenge cars with CCM? Seems like a good idea for track work.

    Ted
     
  23. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 23, 2002
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    Tony H
    Front discs are £1946 each + VAT
    Rear Discs are £1946 each +VAT
    Front Pads are £581 for a set +VAT
    Rear Pads are £541 for a set + VAT

    Labour is 1 hour per disc plus 1 hour for bleeding the fluid after fitment. Current retail labour rate is £110/hour +VAT! An hour for bleeding may initially seem excessive, but, whether you fit one disc or four, you need to bleed each caliper and the traction control hydraulic unit
     
  24. tedwentz

    tedwentz Karting

    Aug 29, 2004
    64
    Mid Atlantic USA
    Full Name:
    Ted Wentz
    Thanks Tony, those prices are a lot kinder than ours, especially the discs.
    I guess we should buy them from the UK.
     
  25. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
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    The harder the pad the longer it lasts but the more you wear out the disc...and then there is the question about not using "standard" parts on a car that is still under warranty......

    Plus the price of pads in France is cheaper than TonyH's UK quotes notwithstanding a higher VAT and if we change at the track we pay no labour (and get a discount).....

    Cross the Channel Tony, it is not only the food that is better!!!
     
  26. tedwentz

    tedwentz Karting

    Aug 29, 2004
    64
    Mid Atlantic USA
    Full Name:
    Ted Wentz
    Good point about the warranty. What is the price of the pads in France in Euros exclusive of VAT?
     
  27. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Dec 23, 2002
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    Hi Peter and thanks for the kind offer ! ;)

    Actually, a couple of interesting thoughts occur to me following your post... Who changes pads for you at the track and is warranty affected if it's not Ferrari approved guys doing work? Using this method , Ferrari UK would have no idea of the amount of pad changes a car's had during it's life and would have no hope of trying to get you to change disks on 2nd pad change !
     
  28. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

    Jan 22, 2004
    2,249
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    Peter Mann

    Ferrari West Europe provide the technical support at all Club Ferrari France and Ferrari Festival meetings, therefore the number of pads changed is logged right into the car's service history. They just do not charge labour at these events.

    My car has never been "touched" by anyone other than a Ferrari West Europe mechanic - not even by a Concessionnaire.

    When are you going to join us? Izza is with us as is Nizza (who even bought a French Ferrari!!!)

    We have more fun, drive harder, go to better race tracks, eat better food, drink better wines see prettier women and all for less dosh........
     

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