CS performance upgrades on a 360 Modena | FerrariChat

CS performance upgrades on a 360 Modena

Discussion in '360/430' started by 360trev, Dec 18, 2018.

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  1. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Interesting upgrade I saw recently to the stock 360 airboxes... It yields same performance as CS airboxes and allows fitment if F430/CS/599 airflow meters on stock looking Modena airboxes. This was done by an incredibly talented metal fabricator, Rex Kelway.

    .. If you then used my Swiss Army Knife tool and my modified full CS firmware you should gain a huge improvement in performance. Add a sports exhaust and you basically get CS performance out of a Modena engine. It's like doing a CS TCU upgrade for the F1...

    I am trying to see if I can get him interested to make a few conversions of the stock airboxes as what a fantastically stock looking upgrade!! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  2. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    Nice bit of fabrication there.
     
  3. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    Pretty sad they build the factory Modena air inlet like that.
     
  4. cfensty

    cfensty Formula Junior
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  5. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Great post Trev! Was there a detailed post somewhere about the differences in the airflow meters?
     
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  6. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    I did mention it on my big project thread about my car but in summary, Ferrari used slightly undersized Air flow meters on the 360 because of part sharing reasons and to help with costs. By the time the F430 came out the F599 needed larger flow meters so they where shared with the F430 and because they where then available during production of the CS they also got used on the Stradale too...

    The main issue is they become a restriction to air flow at higher revs (as does the stock exhaust system). This is why power tails off early on the stock 360 despite having a few hundred rpm left to go before the limiter.

    By reducing back pressure through a sports exhaust and replacing the air flow meter restrictions Ferrari where able to improve peak power. This however needs a tweak to the ignition ECU maps for airflow volume flow characteristics. The ECU needs to know that more air is indeed available to improve Power. However since the stock ECU maps don't inject enough fuel you also need to ideally combine this with full Challenge Stradale ECU firmware, not just a few of the maps which is what most tuners have ripped and merged using WinOLS. The difference between full factory CS ECU firmware Vs partial maps is night and day...

    Even the injector scaling factor (called KRKTE in Bosch Speak ) is different which scales all of the fueling so I believe many tuners are likely to be running lean if they don't add a bit more fuel into the maps and swapping some of them into a Modena firmware. You really need the full firmware to get full benefits... You can actually back port stock Modena air flow meters into Stradale firmware too but it's a bit of a waste of the potential if I'm honest...

    Hence the reason why I'm impressed with the metal work done here. It allows the improved air flow meters to be installed using modified stock Modena lids without having to buy expensive carbon cs lids..

    It means with my Swiss army knife CS modified firmware, these Lids with larger AFM's and a sports exhaust you get CS performance from your Modena engine!
     
  7. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    On my list for sure!
     
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  8. jg360

    jg360 Formula Junior
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    I think I’m going to make these in carbon fiber! I’ll get the look and functionality


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  9. RANDY6005

    RANDY6005 Formula 3
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    Hey Trev I was recommended by a SpeedWerks out of Fla too remove the screens from the Mass Air Flow meters what do you think ?? SpeedWerks has been racing the 360 Challenges cars for 17 years
     
  10. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    See this article from nearly 20 years ago on the subject which started all the curiousity..
    http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0652

    And here is a useful article to make some decisions for yourself...
    http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/maf/maf-screen.htm

    The summary is below 4,000 rpm it makes no difference to performance but can make the ecu linearization inaccurate at best causing problems with mixture. Not really sure its worth going there...
     
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  11. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    Agree with Trev - don't go there. The Scuderia inlet tract optimisation included larger MAFs without a strainer but the effect on MAF accuracy is so significant that a completely different engine operating strategy had to be used, in which the MAF went from being one of the primary sensors to a purely secondary function.
     
  12. tifosi101

    tifosi101 Karting

    Jun 12, 2013
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    Hi dear 360trev, this is once again a very interesting post ! I would like to pick up on this question of power which tails off early on the stock 360. Do you think this is what happens on my dyno test result. My power falls at around 7500 rpm which is early... even if engine accepts to rev higher.

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  13. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    I believe the culprit on the face of it looks like poor timing. I insist on accurate timing (matched on both banks).

    ..Also bear in mind that too few km/miles on odometer can also impact peak power. You need 20k+ miles before engine starts to reach its potential but this curve just feels like incorrectly setup and calibrated timing (after say fitment of new belts).

    The initial ones to focus on are;
    1. Timing. This is one of the big ones. So many are not done with enough skill and care and as such engine will be way down on potential power. Also wrt left and right banks and the differential between them.

    2. Airflow restrictions, e.g. partially blocked airflow from either clogged filters or dirty AFM. Also Larger CS/F430 ones are a good way to go for removing restrictions that high rpm yielded on regular 360 but you'll need Swiss army knife to swap the linearization tables inside your ignition ECUs.

    3. Outlet restrictions, e.g. factory cats failing/blocking, OEM factory exhaust.



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  14. tifosi101

    tifosi101 Karting

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    Thanks for giving your opinion on the question dear Trev.
    I don't want to be off-topic but I think our discussion is relevant.

    On the back of what you said, my car has 70000 km, and the day of the test I had all the O2 sensors (front and rear) new, both MAF new and all injectors serviced by professional on test bench. My cylinders compression were checked good. When driving I don't feel the power loss from 7500 rpm but maybe I am not sensitive enough...

    Point 1/ Timing, obviously, to err is human, but I can say that my timing is good, checked and re-checked according to the state-of-the-art. But why not !

    Point 2/ Airflow restrictions, that is why I am showing my dyno test results. Can I find same type of results sheets for 360 "not remapped" on Fchat ?

    Point 3/ "Stock exhaust", it is not the case on my 360. Exhaust is made of Supersprint headers + HJS 100 cell catalysts (made by Supersprint) et Tubistyle Exhaust. Conditions were checked before dyno test and I still can prove it for now because I have just checked my exhaust line (I have found severe cracks on my Tubi...) for replacing catalyst with bypass (strong F1 sound is back !).
    I have K&N air filters for admission.
    Maybe my carbon airboxes (not CS model, but "Carbonio-like model") have a negative impact ? The design is significantly different from stock "steel" airboxes. Maybe a bad design which implies bad air flow at high rev ? What do you think ?

    What I can add to root-cause analysis :

    4/ Maybe the technician has let ASR mode on and maybe ASR has been activated at the end of the dyno test (at high rev).

    5/ In the same idea, rear tires slipping at high rev on the roll ?

    6/ I have seen on forums that for some cars like Mazda RX, BMW Motorsport, some models are voluntarily decreasing timing advance to reduce power if the car identify that only rear wheels are turning. That is the case on my dyno test bench, the front wheels are static. But if it is the case with my 360, it should be the case for all 360...

    7/ Fan blower was just blowing to my front bumper (like if my car was a front engine...). Maybe it has a significant impact on the engine performance at high rev.

    8/ new idea ?
     
  15. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    1. Firstly timing may be 'in spec' but there are still quite wide tolerances that are deemed 'acceptable'. Get it perfect +/- 1 degree and exactly same between Left and Right banks. Insist on a printout or screenshot.
    2. I'm sure there are dyno results around. There is quite a pronounced drop on your graph at 5,000rpm for nearly 500 rpm which needs understanding. What's happening there and why?

    Having you checked correct operation of pneumatic manifold switchover?

    Looking at your graphs it looks like switchover points above 5k seem to be having issues. This suggests possible issues with pneumatic actuation system. I would suggest to check all the pipework for any excessive bends, kinks, blockages or tears. Also perhaps a leak in the system. The Ignition ecu controls the solenoid valves (as above). I would check the lines going to the vacuum tank too as part of this investigation. Through a lever system the actuation controls and adjusts for the two intake manifold capacities.

    Inside the Bosch Ignition ECUs there are a couple of main maps responsible for the actuation characteristics, these are KFSU and KFSU2. You can pull out the details of these maps (and adjust them!) using Swiss Army Knife.

    KFSU
    Switchover Map 1 on stock mapping occurs at 45%+ throttle and 2,600rpm and is fully switched over by 2,680rpm and 56% throttle, it then closes at 3,960rpm and fully closed by 4,080rpm. The next opening point is 5,040rpm and its fully opened by 5,080rpm (@ 60% throttle).

    KFSU2

    Switchover Map 2 on stock mapping occurs at 40%+ throttle and 5,320rpm, its fully open at 5,520rpm and 50% throttle and stays open all the way to the rev limiter.

    E.g.
    Where rom.ori is the full path to the firmware you want to investigate...
    me7romtool.exe -romfile rom.ori -KFSU
    (for map 1) and ;
    me7romtool.exe -romfile rom.ori -KFSU2
    (
    for map 2)

    For your root cause analysis I will introduce for you the ability to do exhaustive logging very soon. Ideal for this kind of thing!
     
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  16. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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  17. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    Might help to data log timing and afr on next dyno test. Not sure how you log each bank timing real time though.
     
  18. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    I've been working on this. I can log upto 500 parameters per second directly out of the ECU and I have written a tool to extract the locations of thousands of parameters the ecu's manage.

    Here's what I can discover, enumerate and log;

    // EXTERNAL MEM 0x38xxxx range: Num of entries = 2903
    That's 2,903 realtime parameters !! (far too many to list here)
    // INTERNAL RAM 0xExxx-0xFxxx range: Num of entries = 274
    And 274 internal ram parameters...

    Here's some of the basics as an example's

    nmot (Rpm)
    gangi (Gear)
    wdkba_w (ThrottlePlateAngle)
    dpus_w (BaroPressure)
    mshfm_w (MassAirFlow)
    tans_um (IntakeAirTemperature)
    zwout (IgnitionAngle)
    dwkrz_0_A to dwkrz_7_A {IgnitionRetardCyl}
    rkrn_w_0__A {KnockVoltage}
    vfil_w (Speed)
    fr_w {LambdaControl}
    lamsbg_w (AirFuelRatioDesired)
    ti_b1 (InjectionTime)
    tabgm {EGTModelBeforeCat}
    usvk {O2SVoltageSensor}
    rl_w (EngineLoad)
    fzabgs_w (CountMisfireTotal)

    These and many more can be realtime logged and I'm working on a solution to view directly on a phone app or more usefully tablet screen the exact ones you wish to see, either directly as values or graphed. Along with the ability to relocate fixed (flashed) maps to ram and realtime edit them on the fly before reflashing. great for dyno mapping...
     
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  19. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    Another value for your tool— if you allow the user to accurately asses the timing on a used 360. After x belt changes there is a good chance of non optimum timing belt placement.

    I wonder how many drivers who think the 360 is slow... we’re driving out of spec timing cars?
     
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  20. tifosi101

    tifosi101 Karting

    Jun 12, 2013
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    Hi dear Trev !
    Sorry for my late reply and thank you very much for providing such detailed explanations. That is highly technical, I really like it.
    I take notes to the pneumatic manifold switchover.
    In the past, few times after buying the car, I discovered the big butterfly valve (in the center of the air intake manifold) out from its axis of rotation. The valve was rambling into the manifold...

    P.S. : That is why I like Ferrari cars, some people always believe their Ferrari work well, others suspected that could be better ;)
     
  21. tifosi101

    tifosi101 Karting

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    So, I have just checked all the pipes line from vacuum tank to intake manifold. It "looks okay"...
    Maybe one or both solenoid (part Ferrari 159177) valves have a problem ?
    So to check it I could try to look if the pneumatic actuator (below the manifold) and the pneumatic capsule (in the middle of the manifold) are moving.
    But when you write "mapping occurs at xx % + throttle and xxxx rpm", does it occurs also with the car not running and in neutral, just by reving ? (otherwise I will need to put two GoPro during a run !)
     
  22. billboboy

    billboboy Formula Junior

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    Buy a set from Capristo. Sound is a tad better at higher throttle inputs and engine feels a bit perkier above ~5k.
     

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