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Curious about (auction ?) sales venues.

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by TTR, Feb 25, 2021.

  1. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Timo
    As some here know, I've always held somewhat skeptical opinion/views on classic-/exotic-/specialty-car auctions and some of the practices seemingly involved, whether direct or unintentional, including reported "results" and whether or not they actually mean anything, especially on "no sale".

    This has made me wonder if there is any (legitimate) online (or physical) venues similar to BaT*, but with expected/required(?) or even some direct mechanism for public feedback/follow-up on each completed sale, a la ebay ?
    I (for one and perhaps alone) believe it could be quite helpful and interesting(?), especially to those following the "markets", if/when buyers would shared their (hopefully honest) opinion about their purchase/transaction experience and if anything was clearly not "as presented" or how much immediate/unexpected expenditure they endured or faced soon after.

    * I don't see any such mechanism on their platform, so how do people know all their sales are legit and have happy endings ? Or doesn't anyone really care ?
     
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  3. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    All valid concerns Timo as the auction companies increasingly shift to online platforms. It will be interesting to see if online sales thrive post Covid? I've wondered what percentage of BaT sales are actually completed and how many are rescinded, but there has been virtually no reporting of post-block cancellations due to misrepresentation by the major auction houses either.
     
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  4. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Thanks.

    While I've been accused of being conspiracy theorist and over-analyzer of many things, including "some" concepts regarding this world of vintage cars I spend and have spent most of adult life in, I'm relieved to know I'm not alone with these "concerns".

    And as I noted, it would also be very interesting to know how many buyers truly end up pleased with their purchase, but obviously it goes against human nature for most individuals having enough courage to publicly admit having made a mistake (or perhaps got taken ?) and the item they bought really didn't turned out what they expected, especially if that admission should include it being, even if partially, fault of their own, and/or how much more unexpected expenditure they faced in subsequent weeks/months after the dust and glitter of initial excitement had settled.
     
  5. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Also, while I don't have much interest nor time to peruse copious auction listings, I have noticed some BaT listing descriptions seem to feature fair amount of inaccuracies (or misrepresentations ?) and been wondering if theirs are more or less common than those seen on conventional/physical venues ?
     
  6. Prancing 12

    Prancing 12 Formula 3
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    I think it has less to do with embarrassment and more to do with not outing an issue and being left holding the bag. It's far easier to keep quiet and pass the buck, or perhaps put some lipstick on a pig, than it is to sell something once the issue has been broadcast to the market. But maybe I'm a cynic.
     
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  8. Way2fast

    Way2fast Formula 3

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    I bought my wife's RR Ghost last May on BAT. I received a fantastic deal and the seller was fantastic. He picked us up at the airport and drove us 2hrs to get the car. I shipped 2 rear tires (the originals were 9 yrs old) and he had them installed before we arrived so we could drive 4k miles home. I have not heard any of my friends complain about selling or buying on BAT

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
     
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  9. gcalex

    gcalex Karting
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    Having been shopping on-and-off for a car (literally for decades), I've interacted with most different channels for buying a vintage Ferrari (well accept for the mythical "inner-circle of folks selling the good cars among themselves"), and to me, they are pretty much six-of-one, half-a-dozen of the other...

    Auctions, private sellers, brokers, shops, are all basically trying to sell you something, and all have their gaps in knowledge (and even ethics... :)); one is talking about a lot of money, a lot of murkiness regarding times long past and beliefs about what is "correct", and there is not much chance of encountering someone
    "who does not understand what they have". So buyer beware...

    Regarding BAT, if you have done your homework, I don't see it as being better than anything else. Most of the comments are based on pictures, and one can see for themselves and judge for themselves. So it's advantages are mostly for folks who don't know much about the type of car that they covet.

    If one wants the opinions of others about a car at a regular auction, just spend a long of time hanging around the car you are interested in; there is no shortage of folks talking-up and talking-down any given car. Just don't expect them to necessarily know what they are talking about (or necessarily be being honest with the person that they are talking to).

    Regarding cars needing more work than was expected (aka, buyer's remorse), I think everyone tells everyone else to just expect that, right? I'm not sure what the value is in having folks send "feedback" like that all the time. Did my car need more than I had hoped? Sure... Did that surprise me? No... Am I hiding this fact out of embarrassment or malicious re-sell intent? No; I'm just sucking-it-up and fixing the car, and don't see any point in spending energy talking about it...

    Regarding actual sales, vs claims of "sold"; it sure seems to me that things that sell at auctions sell to someone, though that sale could well be to a flipper; things that list as sold by brokers stand a fair chance of having been traded to some other broker. The auction houses don't seem to be shy about "reserve not met", but brokers don't usually have an "I gave up" banner on their websites... :)
     
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  10. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    I appreciate you and others sharing thoughts on the subject, but I tend to view some things you mention (see below) differently.

    I believe having some feedback mechanism in place, even if buyers/seller wouldn't wish always to use it, could "help" (or perhaps even "force"?) sellers to be more forthcoming with any and all potential problems they may be aware, but not necessarily disclosing, not to mention a chance for any "market hawks" (or are they lemmings ?) to get a better after-the-fact assessment of the "real"(?) value of sold cars or honesty of their sellers, especially if/when such sellers offer more vehicles in the future.

    I would also think this ^^ could "help" future buyers of a given vehicle to see what, if anything, had been "unexpected surprises" and whether or not any subsequent owners/sellers had done anything about them.

    Also, are there any (easy to use) mechanisms in place for potential bidders/buyers to vet sellers who may have multiple screen identities (avatars) ?

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  11. gcalex

    gcalex Karting
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    Hi Timo,

    Maybe in the future it would be better not to modify text that the system is going to post in a way the makes it look like it was something said by another party (me, in this case)... :)

    That formatting issue aside. I think my basic point was that when buying a multi-hundred-thousand-dollar car, I think buyers should take personal responsibility to do their due diligence. Based on what I have seen, you’d be foolish to take anyone else’s word for anything, no matter how much “good feedback” they have; even the best independent PPI (for example) is being done by someone that has limited info about the car, and that does not necessarily know the buyer’s sensitivity about different things. I think it is hard for anything to force a seller to be forthcoming, and it is far safer to just check out a car really closely before buying it.

    Few cars are “needs free”, and I tend to think that most of the feedback that folks could offer would largely look the same; just look at all the various “the restoration of XXXX” threads, the flavor of all are pretty similar.

    Cheers,
    Alex
     
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  13. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Alex,

    Yes, you’re right and I apologize. I should’ve at least removed your name from the quote suggesting you being the originator of its modified text. Please forgive me. (This is also why it would be nice if one could edit their own posts beyond very limited time allotment. I mean is 24 or 48 hr timeframe unreasonable ?)

    And yes, I agree on it being buyers responsibility to do his/her due diligence and that we can’t literally “force” sellers to be forthcoming/honest, but it would be nice to see more of both...

    ... and same with many rebuild/restoration threads. While I don’t follow them much, I’ve often wondered how many of those enthusiastically initiated topics quickly fizzle out once the reality sets in or end up showing/telling the real and entire story, good and bad.
     
  14. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Edit:
    * Many end up inadvertently/unknowingly telling the entire (real ?) story with unintended details in photos and/or comments left unsaid.
    I came to realize +/-35 years ago that a picture can lie more than thousand words (or often show/tell a lot more than photographer had intended to capture/share).
     

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