CUTTING 360 WHEELS FOR A 328 | FerrariChat

CUTTING 360 WHEELS FOR A 328

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Ivan BeRossy, Feb 2, 2005.

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  1. Ivan BeRossy

    Ivan BeRossy Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Anyone have any experience cutting the rear 360 wheels 1"+ - narrower to fit a pre ABS 328 and using a narrower tire to clear the shock. I think this solution could work rather than changing the rear coilovers
     
  2. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Cutting?

    Seriously? Would you trust a narrowed wheel at speed? These aren't the old time steelies from the 50s.
     
  3. Ivan BeRossy

    Ivan BeRossy Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Weldcraft, who was recommended on F-Chat says he can do it with no problem, they are not alloy they are aluminum.
     
  4. Rev.ATARI

    Rev.ATARI Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2004
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    Narrowing the wheel would consist of removing a section from the middle and then welding the 2 outer part back together, now considering a properly done weld is stronger then the original solid part I see no problems…
     
  5. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Oh, I know how wheels are narrowed or widened -- I used to be into old school hotrods. I just thought the 360 wheels were some odd alloy, not aluminum.

    Maybe a better bet is 4 front wheels?

    In any case I hope there's a good answer to the question, I want the 360s on my 328 too.
     
  6. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    On pre ABS wheels if you do not want to go downt the custom rear shock/spring setup, the solution is to simply run all fronts. A 225/40 fits and is more then enough to run all around.

    I have a set of all fronts from a 360 I have for my car that I am going to install in the spring.

    I am going to sell them shortly there after and get 512 fronts or 575 fronts. (both 18s)
     
  7. dapper

    dapper Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
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    what isn't technically an 'alloy'
     
  8. infraredline

    infraredline Formula 3

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    An alloy is just a combination of two or more metals. I don't believe there is any advantage to using pure alluminum (or any othe metal) nowadays, since by combining metals you can come up with an alloy that is stronger/lighter/tougher than any of the donor metals. Why am I saying all this?
     
  9. Sloan83qv

    Sloan83qv F1 Rookie
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    #9 Sloan83qv, Feb 3, 2005
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  10. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Paul, I thought your car had the narrower shock/spring combo in the rear. Is that not the case?
     
  11. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Good question.

    Even "commercially pure" 1100 aluminum has traces of silicon, copper, iron, manganese and about 0.1% zinc. And that's too soft for wheels and such. Most castings are done in 356 aluminum, which is indeed an alloy, although it's mostly aluminum. You'll find magnesium, chromium and a trace of titanium in that stuff.

    So they're all alloys; the question is only which alloy!
     
  12. Sloan83qv

    Sloan83qv F1 Rookie
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    It does have the narrowed shock springs but with the use of the right adaptors (professionaly made!) you can use the 360 wheels on any car. I would recommend that you use 4 360 fronts as they are 8" wheels rather then the 10"rears. I do use the 10" rears but with the smaller shocks that is possible.

    Paul
     
  13. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    ;)

    Be sure to call James soon again and tell him that Don sent you, maybe he'll cut me a deal on MY pair of 360 wheels that are there right now! He just emailed me to say that one's damaged beyond repair, good thing I have spares! :|

    Oh, yeah, so I, like GM, will trust these wheels.
     
  14. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I've heard statement like that many times, and it is just not true, particularly with aluminum. The corect statement would be the that weld bead is stronger than the original material and that is generally only true for steel. The original material surrounding the weld is alway comprimised during the welding process and become weaker, this is partcicularly true with aluminums.

    For a cast wheel to get original strength, you would need to pre-heated, weld using the same alloy (that would be custom rod) then heattreat after. If the wheel is forged, you can't get it back to original strength.

    Changing the shocks/springs is the right way to do the retro fit
     
  15. Rev.ATARI

    Rev.ATARI Formula Junior

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    Sorry I wasn’t trying to imply that you did not know.



    Not trying to start an argument here, but I have attended one of the best welding schools in America and have seen stress test that prove me as being correct…
     
  16. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    No arguments wanted from me, either, but it really depends on what you guys are talking about.

    In general, forged wheels would be weaker at the weld. Cast wheels will be stronger at the weld because the weld will be denser than the parent casting. If you properly TIG 1100 sheet with 1100 rod, the weld will be identical to the sheet IF you can keep it the same thickness.

    Also, you need to compare strength and brittleness. Along with welding processes, and types of filler rod, heat treating and so on.

    From what you guys say, I'll bet dollars to donuts that neither mk e nor Rev.ATARI are certified.
     
  17. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    2 quick things:

    I believe the alloy is an Al Si alloy, I have to check later.

    360 fronts are 7.5 inches wide.
     
  18. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    Not trying to argue either, but don't try anything like that on an aircraft, the FAA would never approve it. No structural parts can ever be welded, and that would include wheels, as well as crankshafts, and propellors. Would anyone ever trust a welded connecting rod? Why?
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Interesting, but the published data don’t support that. I did see data once for a 5000 series aluminum that had better number after welding, but they started with annealed material which is only about 1/3 the yield strength as stain hardened versions.

    A forged wheel is strain hardened before welding. The weld zone will be annealed/normalized after welding, so much lower strength. I’m not sure what alloy they use, but 6061 is the most common for forging and used extensively in aircraft forging. The finished part would be in a T6 condition with a yield strength of about 40ksi. After welding the best you could hope for is a T0 condition (the material tends to over-age and is actual worse than annealed) with a yield of 8 ksi, or 1/5 the original strength.

    All the cast alloy show about a similar trend. About the strongest cast alloy is 201.0 T7 which starts at 50 ksi and drops to 12ksi.

    Standard welding rod is a 4000 series for it’s ductility, so it will not heat treat properly if used on any of the other alloy. You would need to get special rod of a matching alloy.

    Last, quoting for “Marks’ Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, tenth edition”, “Fill rod alloys must be chosen carefully for strength, corrosion resistance, and compatibility with the parent alloys to be welded……All aluminum alloys suffer a reduction in strength in the heat-affected weld zone, although the reduction is less in some aluminum-magnesium (5xxx) series alloys. Postweld heat treatment may be used to counter the reduction in strength caused by welding, but extreme care must be taken to avoid embrittlement or warping of the weldment.”

    You are correct I'm not a ceritfied welder. I'm just the lowly engineer that designs the part and puts the specs on the drawing for the welder to follow :)
     
  20. peajay

    peajay Formula Junior

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    Korowbar, if you have ever flown, I guarantee you have flown with engines that have welded steel structures. I know because I build them every day, including the worlds biggest and most powerful 115K lbs thrust on the 777.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Steel is a very different animal than aluminum. Steel welds can be just as strong was 1 piece if done correctly, generally aluminum can not.
     
  22. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

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    Hmm. In the end, I've seen and heard of plenty of Weldcraft-modified wheels being used in more severe duty than I'll be putting them through.

    I don't see this as the "wrong" way to put these wheels on the car, quite the opposite. Sure it would be fun to put on some high-zoot shocks & springs and clearance my control arms (THAT always makes ME cringe!), but, well, that's not my current destination. I'll report back once I've crashed through the first killer Detroit pothole!
     
  23. peajay

    peajay Formula Junior

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    Aircraft engines don't use much steel, generally aluminium, titanium, and nickel alloys.
     
  24. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    You're not a materials engineer, either, are you? ;)

    4000 series welding rod isn't any more "standard" than 5000 series. And if you wanted to choose a rod primarily for its ductility, you'd use 1100. Regardless, the filler rod isn't a problem.

    Here's a case where you're right, though. I guy I know was trying to gas weld a repair on a Countach doorskin. The sheetmetal on either side of the weld got extremely brittle, even crystalized, and cracked on either side of the weld. He the proceeded to weld up those cracks, which caused further cracking. He ended up chasing the cracks all over the door. Of course, the cracking could have been prevented by the proper heat treating, but the weldor had no idea what alloy the doorskin was. (He ended up reskinning the whole thing in 3003--and swearing off Lamborghini bodywork at the same time.)
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Lambo body work DOES take a lot of swearing......why not buy the right size wheels from a manufacturer?
     

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