Cycling & Mountain Biking

Ok, I never thought of that, it could be I guess. I didn't release Canpagnolo was linked to Fulcrum.

 

Well alright, I appreciate your explaining what you "started to clarify" in your earlier post.

Now that you have "fully clarified" what you were aiming your points at, I am glad we got it sorted out. In the same way that you felt the thread was heading off the rails, I also felt your message was steering my input off the rails.

Unlike you, most readers wouldn't be able to immediately verify everything I have been posting. And with your excellent credentials, an unfortunate misunderstanding could easily have your comments unfairly cast doubt on whatever reasonable opinions and advice I have to offer this forum. That's why my response was very rigorous. I don't get into a discussion unless I have something meaningful to say, or back up.

Anyway, I think we are on the same page even though I don't own 11 Parlees or even 11 bikes for that matter. I do agree the "stuff" used on the pro tours aren't necessarily the ultimate setup for each event, but generally-speaking they are all very decent gear and very high end. In that regard, they do reflect what most weekend warriors would like to use. I think even you obviously agree it gets silly if we have to constantly ditch perfectly good bikes and gear just because a newer, slightly higher-spec one is available. As Richard pointed out, we should just spend more time on our bikes.

I am curious though. You have 11 Parlees plus a LOOK 496 track bike (very nice). While I tend to agree you have very nice bikes, aren't you curious about other bikes? How about variety? Thanks for telling me about the Lew wheels - OMG, 737g/pair at $15k! That's even more scary to sully than a new Ferrari. I also prefer exposed nipples, as I like to tweak them. Your ENVE wheels are in line with my choices. Aside from my Campy/Fulcrum wheels, I have a set of Zipp 404 Firecrest tubulars and Miche 358. Ironically, I am training on Shimano R500s, truly awful bearings and heavy to a fault. I also have on "bicycle courier" Halo street tires because of Winter road debris. Only my training bike, the Addict CX is on Shimano gear, because as with your experience, it came that way and it's set up for cold weather training rather than to savour under proper cycling conditions. I only use mechanical shifters and rim brakes because they are lighter, more reliable to use/maintain and "look right". Like you, I am a bit sentimental whereas Shimano is mostly a marketing monster. In spite of mostly good Shimano gear, the company simply isn't on par with Campagnolo. Even the guys selling Shimano gear will have/want Campy gear on their personal bikes.

So, having gotten that out of the way, you have to admit, the pro racing circuit is one heck of a test bed. On a tour like the TDF, we've got 22 teams, around 200 highly fit expert riders with different skillsets, playing different roles, racing their team bikes over an incredible variety of scary circuits, various conditions day-in and day-out for 21 days of racing (testing). And it's done every year, along with a host of other similar races (tests) over each season, all of them easily available to the public to observe, pick through and try for themselves.

At my age and in my condition, I'm just in it for my health, to sample the experience and get in on the excitement. It's simply for fun. That's why I'm not concerned if my ride isn't 100% the best I can have it. As long as it gives me some of the same thrills the pros experience, I'm completely satisfied. It's the same reason why I own a Ferrari. The pro circuit for roadies is like F1 for people who enjoy driving a sports car. And I think most people on Fchat would understand exactly what I mean.

 

Since most people don't realize Fulcrum is Italian and made by Campagnolo, Campagnolo uses the Fulcrum name to make it less "jarring" for people to mix Shimano and Campy gear on the same bike.

It's the same problem as having Shimano wheels on an Italian bike (yes, I often cringe when I see a SKY team bike). Movistar's got it right.

 

Well, a few things that I should probably put out there that I usually don't. I actually test bikes and wheels for various manufacturers. Sometimes other equipment too but usually frames and wheels with the odd handlebar and seatpost. I have been responsible for the final testing on some amazing products that have won "Best ____ of the year" awards from CyclingNews, Bicycling magazine, Cycling Weekly, on and on. And that's how some really nice things have come into my possession, including many of those wheels (are those really $15k a set??). As for Parlee, I was Bob's first sponsored athlete. My first Parlee was the 7th frame he ever built. I still have it. Anyways, I have helped him ever since, both in development and final testing and I always make time for Bob and his stuff. I really do believe that he is making the best frames on the market in their respective segments, price not withstanding. Even when you factor in price, his stuff is still mega competitive but it's not as clear cut.

Also, you make it sound like I went out and bought 11 Parlees. Let's be clear. I didn't. I just accumulated them over the last 13 years. Some were my race bikes, some are prototypes, some are pre production bikes, etc. But I love them all and they're pieces of my history. Before Parlee I was sponsored by Litespeed and I have a couple of one-off custom Litespeeds in the basement, too. I also have an older Colnago Master Light. These are the bikes that I've kept.

You asked if I am curious as to how other bikes ride. Not really because I ride them all. I spend a lot of time riding other manufacturers bikes. A lot. I just don't own them. I get them and put in miles, make notes, try different things, and move on to the next one. And I literally ride everything that I can get my hands on. But when I'm done riding them and making my notes I just send them back to whomever I get them from. Some I've kept for longer than others because I like them more but none have every become permanent fixtures in my basement.

The only bike that I don't have that I really wish I had kept was a fairly early Colnago C-40 from maybe 1995 or 1996. I got it as hand me down when I raced in Belgium. It had belonged to one of the pro teams (Mapei or someone) as a spare and was used when I got it in 1999 or whatever and I kept it for a couple of years and raced on it for a season. I loved it but it was a really bad bike in lots of ways and I couldn't justify keeping it so I sold it for travel money or something. I wish that I had that still. Actually, I had a Ritchey Road Logic road frame that was filet brazed in the mid 90's. I am pretty sure that some one Tom built himself. I wish I kept that one too. But when you're a starving bike racer you don't have the luxury of keeping things you can't or don't use any more. I always needed the money for food or rent or whatever.

Also, you asked about the Tour as a test bed, etc. Here's the thing. There are a lot of great, great products used in the Tour... for a day. There are products that pros get that perform exceptionally well but have a very limited lifespan and when they're done, they get tossed. I have seen some very high end stuff get used to one stage and then get relegated to the trash heap, the training pool, or the pile for the affiliated junior team after only one use because it's just not good enough anymore. But on TV, you see it used day after day and it looks like great equipment.

When I evaluate equipment, one of the biggest pieces of criteria that I have is "would I spend my money on it." For something to be worth buying, it has to have a level of durability in it that's just not applicable to professional cycling. Just like a Formula 1 engine isn't applicable to street use, a lot of bicycle race equipment isn't really suitable for long term use and ownership. That's why in many cases, manufacturers will make special equipment for Pro Tour teams that look like what you can buy out of the Excel catalog or your local shop but it's vastly different.
Consequently, the things that I think make the best equipment are usually not what most people think. There's lightweight and aero and all of that but I still feel the best ability is availability. Stuff that's dependable and will last and can travel well trumps everything else. And, as usual, there's a balance. Remember the old saying: Light, durable, cheap - you can have any two but not all three.

Anyways, I hope that helps answer some of the questions.

 

I have a general question about riding on recovery days. I'm a "professional" weekend warrior. I ride 4 days a week during the summer months. A combination of mountain bike trails, road riding and hill training. About every two weeks I mountain bike for 2 hours at max effort. My heart rate average during these rides estimated at 145. My question is recovery. If I want to ride the next day my body is still exhausted. I am not sore but my max effort is poor. My heart rate shoots up and my body turns to jelly. My recovery from hard efforts on the recovery day seem to take minutes instead of seconds. My question is what type of effort should I do or expect the day after a hard effort? Also what can I do to improve recovery? I appreciate any comments. Thanks.

 

Well, you've obviously earned the privilege of being given access and ownership of many of the most interesting gear. I also appreciate your loyalty to Parlee.

The standard 800gm Lew wheel is about $6k. The $15k set is 737gm.

I think you're mistaken. I only pointed out that you "have" 11 Parlees. I didn't say you (just) went out and bought them. Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

What I did say was that "I" just bought a few bikes to get back into cycling after a hiatus of 30 years.

Many of us would love to be in your position. Of course, a person can have too many bikes. One also needs to spend enough time on a bike to really understand all its subtleties, even warts and all. Bikes are like cars in that sense.

I personally like variety. With so many bike makers and models of bikes, it's inevitable that innovations exist in many bikes. And innovations are interesting for their own sake. It's not like with groupsets, where we only have 3 serious players: Campagnolo, Shimano and SRAM. Actually, I might like to try a SRAM-equipped bike next, just to see what it's like to "live with".

I didn't have much money when I was in school and couldn't afford a Colnago or a Masi or Cinelli for that matter. My "best bike" was a Grandis SL which I raced on at the local level in the mid 70s. It was highly-regarded and very light but not exactly what you wanted to challenge someone in a sprint with. They still make bikes and actually sponsor a team.

I drifted away from cycling after a close cycling buddy passed away. I sold my Grandis, along with my track bike to a friend. I just needed to move on.

Really… that's not news at all. That's common sense and common knowledge within the racing community.

The Mavic Gold rims and Alessandro silk tires I raced on 30 years ago were very fragile and only intended for use on the race day. Most people could not afford to train on them (and keep replacing them). So you'd only race on them and they did perform as designed. Wheels and tires are consumables… and so are framesets given enough mileage and abuse.

So this is not an issue of misleading the public or the club racer. If you race you would know about racing equipment vs touring equipment. Even with racing equipment you'd realize there are training gear vs gear good for regular races vs the gear you save for only special events.

This is nothing new and the bike shops and/or manufacturers will tell you some of their gear (usually tires and wheels) are only meant for racing (limited mileage). It's the same with racing cars.

Hmm, surely you must know the UCI World Tour races I mentioned all adhere to UCI regulations on equipment, amongst other things. UCI teams cannot use faked stealth gear to fool the public as you seem to imply.

UCI racers are only to use equipment that is also available to the broad public. They cannot make and pass off "stealth gear" as if it were regular gear. Anyone should be able to walk in a bike shop and put together the exact same bike. If a UCI competitor is found to have used such stealth equipment in a UCI event, they would be immediately disqualified.

"…Bicycles and their accessories shall be of a type that is sold for use by anyone practising cycling as a sport.

As a result of production imperatives (time constraints), an exception may be requested from the UCI for equipment that is a final product and that will be marketed in the nine months after its first use in competition. The manufacturer must however publish information on the equipment in question in advance and announce the date of its market launch.

The use of equipment designed especially for the attainment of a particular performance (record or other) shall be not authorised. …"​

And then there is the very strict UCI requirement that states "…The weight of the bicycle cannot be less than 6.8 kilograms.…". That's 15 lbs, which is a few lbs heavier than many superlight gear can achieve. So this one regulation makes it pretty pointless for UCI teams to run superlight "stealth" gear. Which is one reason why I find UCI events to be useful test bed for racing gear. They are generally robust and not actually "bleeding edge" stuff.

That is also why bike equipment (framesets) come with UCI labels… so that riders are reassured their equipment will meet sensible UCI regulations at sanctioned events.
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There is a correct number of bikes to own. It's a simple arithmetic calculation.

The number of bikes you own is = n

N + 1 = the correct number of bikes one should own.

This is indisputable.

 

Heartrate is indeed a standard measure of recovery from a physical exertion. However, for a heartrate measurement to be truly informative you must first determine what your initial baseline resting heartrate is and where it normally would be with regard to other people of:

- your age
- your sex
- your build (height, body type and weight)
- your training (or racing) background

The most important heartrate measure is your INITIAL baseline heartrate. If you haven't measured that yet you need to back off training for a few days and monitor your baseline resting heartrate. If you are over-training (as you appear to be) you will see your baseline resting heartrate drop day-by-day. When it stops dropping, you will have found your initial baseline.

To measure your resting baseline heartrate, place your heartrate measuring device (can be as simple as your watch) by your bedside and use it as soon as you wake up in the morning (fully rested). That is the most reliable time to measure your resting baseline.

Heartrate is different for different people. Small persons generally have higher resting heartrate. Large persons tend to have lower resting heartrate. A very low resting heartrate in the absence of training may warrant medical concern.

Your resting heartrate will fall (improve) when compared to your initial resting baseline as your training improves your conditioning. But, it can also rise, if you are not recovering properly and overtrain. This is how we used to monitor and gauge our training progress in the old days, first thing each morning.

I can't really comment on your training regimen as I know too little about you to say much. The only guess I can hazard to make is that you are likely overtraining and need to back off. My advice to monitor your resting heartrate to determine your initial resting baseline is sound advice for anyone who is training to improve fitness (while avoiding injury). When in doubt, err on the side of caution to avoid an injury. Overtraining will eventually result in damaged muscle and joints.

A proper training program needs to be well thought-out. It has to follow a safe and effective path to some training goal. Every training program has to have a measured starting point and a purposeful destination plus some idea of what the athlete's potential is. If you have not determine a baseline and a training goal, all your training will be ad hoc, will yield ad hoc results and you will end up at some ad hoc physical condition based on luck, good or bad. Baseline heartrate is also just one measure of your baseline condition.

If you belong to a club, there should be knowledgeable people to help you with your training program. Some experienced riders are also accredited coaches.

 

…this is not encouraging news.

 

That's great advice 4th gear, regarding monitoring my resting heart rate. I am taking that advice. You also mention ad hoc training equals equally ad hoc result. My problem with this is I am involved in seasonal actives. The winter involves skiing, snowmobiling, tennis and swimming lengths periodically. Summer months are primarily biking with a dose of catamaran sailing and a few other activities. My base training consists of working with a trainer during the winter months.
I do not have a physical state that is maintained through the year. This has been a goal that I have not reached. Mainly because I would rather be involved in the activities. I am also a member of a triathletes gym with several excellent trainers. My problem is being consistent with their advice. They want me in the gym on a compu trainer several times a week all year round. I was on the compu trainer one winter but got bored of it the second winter and took up tennis instead......

I Should take your advice and theirs and head back to the gym. I am going to have to think about this.

Again thanks for your advice.

 

I know the rules. Everyone knows the rules. The only rule that I know that truly is adhered to is the 6.8kg weight rule. I won't say any more than that.

 

Anyone ever ride a road bike with hydrolic disc brakes? I have wondered why they have' t been adopt to road bikes.

 

Hey hey, you guys should get a Jamis bike I do really love them to be honest. We ride Dura Ace 11 speed if you are curious and it works great.
Anyway here is me a pretty sized pro race in Redlands, CA this week.
Redlands Bicycle Classic 2014: Matt Cooke (Team Jamis Hagens Berman P/b Sutter Home), Photos | Cyclingnews.com

 

Hey Blue - you mention a few interesting points. i ride roughly 6x/week, with a professional coach etc... if you're estimating your average hr, get a hrm; need facts. the pro's can train with perceived effort, not us amateurs. I wouldn't consider it over-training, but under-recovery. it can take up to 10 days to recover from a total annihilation ride if you're bonking really hard. your waking hr will track this. the day after a race I might spin easy (<78% maxhr even) or just take the day off altogether (horizontal on a couch with laptop). your body's different.

Just going out and riding hard is one training method, and has worked for many for years - today there's a lot of focus on intervals and high intensity/shorter ride stuff mixed in.

improve recovery? for me; water, electrolytes, protein, sleep, rest, coffee, and for brutal days - Single Malt. again, find what works for you.

As you get fitter you can put 2, or even 3, day training blocks of hard efforts back-back.

I'll be 50yo in a few months, and a dedicated roadie.

PM me if you'd like to discuss some more, I'm on FChat less and less these days.

 

Cookie, you missed the part where some of these guys weigh more than 128 lbs soaking wet. They might need something a little more "substantial."

Text me when you get back and we'll catch up.

 

if you're ever in the Vancouver area, dinner's on me!

Always fun to see what the pro's choose to buy with their own $'s, rather than the sponsorship stuff.

I've heard way too many stories about the 6.8kg rule to even have much faith in that one.

 

T,
I will be in Burnaby at some point soon. I love your city and it will be great to meet up after all these years.

 

They're available on high end road bikes now but I don't like them, and it's not just because I'm an older guy and sentimental about the good old days.

Disc brakes come from the MTB side of cycling, and even though the MTB scene and MTB riders are very cool it sure looks like the road scene is being messed up by MTB equipment not properly-designed for the road scene. And I think it's mainly about making money.

After a non-starter in 2013, I believe the UCI has now agreed to allow the use of disc brakes. While they are superior in wet conditions and work better on very long and steep descents found on the pro tours, I haven't noticed complaints from riders that cannot be mitigated so I think the push is coming mainly from bike/equipment manufacturers.

Here are some relevant facts - if you want or need disc brakes on your road bike, you need to buy new framesets and a completely new set of wheels plus some new tools. That means spending a lot of money on heavy, clumsy ugly gear&#8230; all for no particularly good reason. They really mess up the frontal Cd of a bike, the brake cable arrangement is messy, slung off the left side all the way down to the front hub. From a technical perspective, it's an ugly kludge.

I've also read reports about inferior brake feel and that they are "grabby" (hydraulic). Not sure how credible it was but the UCI was worried riders may burn themselves on the brake rotors in a crash (involving multiple riders) as the smaller metal brake rotor surface can get extremely hot. It was enough to block their acceptance in 2013.

Road-racing performance is about sustained high speeds, muscle-propelled speeds, aerodynamics, very long leg-sapping climbs, fast smooth descents, agility and sprinting. These are not concerns that influenced disc brake designs for the MTB scene where disc braking is primarily designed to counteract gravity-propelled speeds on much heavier bikes that have little or no concerns about aerodynamics.

So when you consider the core requirements in road-racing you see the glaring lack of congruence between an otherwise excellent piece of MTB gear and road racing imperatives. The only benefit is a slight edge on braking on rare occasions, at the expense of just about everything else: high aerodynamic drag, added weight, complex maintenance, complete replacement of equipment.

IMO disc brake technology on road bikes is more an short term marketing ripoff that may potentially rake in a huge haul of cash for the equipment makers. Many bike makers (Colnago included) went out and built many high end bikes with disc brakes before the UCI nixed their disc brake proposal in 2013. I suspect those manufacturers were hurting, holding inventory that became hard to unload. So now it's about money and politics. A proper braking improvement for road bikes requires a much better and cleaner design developed specifically for road bikes that will provide benefits without compromising the more important imperatives in road racing.

IMO, I would not rush out and buy one.

 

You're welcome.

I think it's great that you have been able to stay so active across the seasons. IMO, what would really help you is if you set clear goals. From personal experience, different sport disciplines tend to compromise one another because they emphasize different and often opposing aspects of your body. For instance, running and cycling are not compatible for optimum performance in either discipline, because they develop opposing muscle groups that hamper performance of each other.

However, you can still run and cycle, avoiding most of the incompatibilities, if you set proper goals and consciously design your training and expectations to avoid problems. This is where advice from an expert trainer who personally understands cycling and other sports disciplines becomes very valuable. Just take care to pick the right trainer as he/she has to be an expert in your chosen sport discipline(s).

This brings to mind another pet truism of mine - FOCUS. In order to perform exceptionally, one has to focus. You cannot try to be the best in everything, simply because they have conflicting requirements. OTOH, you can also decide to be a jack-of-all-trades and enjoy a breadth of sports disciplines, without a focus on any given one. The key is then to compromise and be aware to avoid pushing too hard and expect too much in some disciplines, to avoid injury and overstress.

It is also not possible to sustain a static state of physical fitness. Training is about moving up or down in physical condition. This is why bike racers always plan, train and race to peak for the races that matter to them. Of course you can also plan not to peak but the best you can do is to lose conditioning and then recover it: it's still up-and-down. The body does not respond well to staying put. If you try to maintain the same training regimen, you will get bored, stale and your performance will actually drop. You have to allow for peaks and valleys. If you have expert advice, you can change physical fitness focus from endurance to speed or strength or agility but that also involves destruction and rejuvenation.

Look at Nature, it's not static. It's the same with our body, it gets built up a certain way, then expended (hopefully in a useful way) and where possible, it is rebuilt (in the same way or in another way). Destructive rejuvenation is the story of life. It doesn't work if you try to stand still.

You're obviously a very good physical specimen and I very much envy your enthusiasm and stamina. I think you only need to have your expectations align with your training.

BTW, you may be interested to use a power meter instead of a HR monitor. Look into that.

 

Pro cycling has in the recent past had a truly awful record with cheating. Doping is an ever-present problem, even today. I also understand some of the equipment rules I mentioned were recently amended. You've also actually been part of the pro circuit so I can understand you have your own good reasons for your comments. However, UCI officials do appear to be very strict nowadays and I think the bikes from the high-placing riders are carefully checked.

 

Wow, great photos from an actual pro event, happening right now! You were really putting the hammer down - good body position.

Yeah, I've looked at a few Jamis bikes and they are impressive kit. I think aside from getting adequate media attention another big factor in picking a bike is logistical. You gotta have a reliable, trustworthy local dealer for the bikes you pick unless you travel a lot anyway. Not so easy to check out Jamis bikes in the GTA. Dura Ace has some unnecessary unfortunate design aesthetics but is good equipment. IMO Shimano is just too pushy with their marketing.

Hope the criterium event went well for you earlier today.

 

Thank you
The crit is not too much my speed. As a 133 pound guy I much prefer hills. The sunset stage was brutal. It hurts like hell but I love it. Here is another one, I am on the left, I was setting up my teammate to take maximum King of the Mountain points which he ended up winning. Redlands Bicycle Classic 2014: Daniel Jaramillo And Matt Cooke (Team Jamis Hagens Berman..., Photos | Cyclingnews.com
Funny enough we stayed with a guy who has a good car collection. Some old Jags and many old Cadillacs. He even had a Testarossa but sold it.

 

4th gear, my focus is on biking and improving my wattage. Everything else comes in second. It was one of my trainers who advised my to take up tennis. He said correctly that cycling is all forward motion, tennis will work me side to side, excellent cross training.
My fitness is static in the sense that I cycle through the the same range from year to year. I need to develop a routine that develops and upwards slope from year to year. I dont need much just a few degrees.

Thanks tjacoby, sounds like you have good system. I'm a dedicated mountain biker with a strong dose of road riding. Spent two years in whistler. I mountainbiked in the loonie races. one of the races was 1/2 way blackcomb mountain and then down. Great place to ride.

 

4th gear

Hydraulic disc brakes. I have two road bikes, two mountain bikes with disc brakes and a bunch of other stuff to ride. No matter what bike, disc brakes will perform consistently in any terrain and weather. I didn't warm up to them innitially. It was only after experiencing the consistency that I now prefer them to any other type of brake. I still miss the mechanical feel and adjustability of the mechanical brake. I weep a little when i ride my old v brake mountain bike. On the other hand I am not sure we need brakes rubbing on several thousand dollar wheels, do we? The mountain bike industry went through many of the sentiments you have mentioned and they are relevant. The basic design can be refined, addressing all of the engineering concerns. All of them. Hydraulics are better.

This is indisputable fact. Seriously ; )

 

Seriously, it's not about sentiments or even disc brake technology. It's about bike design.

The disc brakes currently being pushed on the road bike scene are a cynical rip-off. While they should work well for cyclo-cross or street riding due to different operating conditions and requirements they are not properly designed for road racing. These people assume the public will be gullible enough to waste money on them.

You mention "&#8230;brakes rubbing on several thousand dollar wheels". I have never worn out any racing rim from braking. If you do, you are using the wrong pads - pads are supposed to wear, not the rims. And why would anyone buy complete new bikes and replace multiple sets of wheels instead? High end bikes are normally used with multiple pairs of expensive wheels. You want to replace everything instead of "wearing them out"? You are assuming the buyer is a novice buying his first bike. That's usually not the case for high end racing bikes.

Brakes, like any technology, can indeed be improved. Disc brakes properly designed for road bikes can work well, if they address all the needs of road racing. But cheap grafting of disc brakes without proper design modifications from MTB to road bikes is an insult to customers and riders. The Campy Super Record sidepulls on my bikes actually stop faster and stronger than my tires can - tire adhesion is the weakest link when I brake. Luckily my sidepulls are very easy to modulate, so I don't skid. Disc brakes won't help me at all. I don't use V-brakes (centrepulls).

The people selling such bikes are just out to make a quick buck and riders will be stuck with "design mistakes". This is a still-born idea. I would wait until those knuckleheads realize their folly and fix their designs before wasting my money on them.