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cylinder head gasket, searching advice

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by moserpe, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. moserpe

    moserpe Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    137
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Peter Moser
    Due to a leaking exhaust valve of my 400i VIN48739, I had the left bank cylinder head overhauled in a specialised engine shop.
    while the engine stayed in the car, I noticed when removing the head: firstly extremely tightened nuts. It was definitely much above the 100Nm specified in the manual. Secondly the old gasket was sticking to the engine block due to use of some sealing compound, which is basically a no-go.
    After reassembly of the engine with the correct torque applied to all the nuts and bolts, I experienced a tremendous leak of cooling water into the oil sump (fortunately before starting the engine!). A detailed investigation showed a major leak into the rearmost oil drain channel between cyl. 8 and 9 to the sump.

    Now it is obviously not possible to do any correction on the sealing surface of the block and I can not imagine any other remedy than applying again some kind of sealing paste between the block and the gasket.

    Is there any experience in the community with this kind of problem? Any suggestion about suitable sealing paste? This should of course not dry too quickly since it may take more than an hour to get it properly applied and get the head fixed and tightened to the engine.

    I'd very much appreciate to hear about such kind of experience because I'm quite desperate now.
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If you are using the currently available Elring head gaskets that is your problem. The material was changed and they no longer work. It has been a widely experienced issue.
     
  3. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2010
    469
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary
  4. christc

    christc Karting

    Mar 3, 2013
    207
    Germany
    What type of head gasket did you use? Elring?

    You can apply VHT copper gasket. I got this as a recommendation from very experienced Ferrari guys, one of them here on fchat (turbo-joe).

    High quality gaskets are available from Murray Glegg in Australia as recommended by Tom Yang.

    Christopher
     
  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,221
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    I would never use any RTV assembling engine components. The part that squishes out the side of the gasket will cure like the the rest and can form little balls and plug oil galleys
    The original Hylomar developed by DuPont and Rolls Royce is a non-hardening material; if some squishes into the oil side the material does not harden and can not clog galleys. Now finding the ORIGINAL Hylomar is difficult. Permatex had to revise their packaging and no longer call their non-hardening material Hylomar but they reference "like Hylomar" or similar on the package. If cost is under $10 it is not the original. You can find the original on line for about $40 for a tube. It can be applied hours or days ahead of assembly. I used this to seal the high pressure oil galley going for the iron block to the aluminum head on a Cosworth BDR motor; the oil was weeping externally.
    An alternate if you do not have a gap to fill is to use "Gasket Maker". It is painted on both surfaces and goes tacky but you do not have to assemble immediately. When assembled the two tacky surfaces make the seal. I used this approach to seal a supercharger manifold on an AMG.

    Reading the other replies it sounds like getting the right head gasket is the real issue, but if in doubt for the one area of the gasket use Hylomar or Gasket Maker. One man's opinion.
    Ken
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,070
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Brian,

    Can you recommend a supplier or gasket manufacturer of head gaskets that will work properly? I ask, as I am planning on some preventative head work (replacing exhaust valves with SS, etc) and so I will need some head gaskets that I have confidence in.

    Thanks in advance!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  7. christc

    christc Karting

    Mar 3, 2013
    207
    Germany
    Speak to Murray Glegg, murray@gleggman.com

    He produces head gaskets for all types of Ferrari that work.
     
    samsaprunoff likes this.
  8. moserpe

    moserpe Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    137
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Peter Moser
    Thanks for all your answers.
    The brand of the gasket is ELRING. According to Maranello Classic Parts and Eurospares, this is the OEM Product. It's absolutely sad if this is really known to create problems, specifically with reference to its price.
    My conclusion is that I will make a second attempt using HYLOMAR ADVANCED FORMULATION applied at the critical zones between water and oil ducts. If the leakage will not disappear, i will talk to Murray Glegg although their business is waterjet-cutting rather than gaskets and sealing.

    Peter
     
  9. daytonaman

    daytonaman Formula Junior
    Owner

    May 1, 2007
    475
    Australia
    Full Name:
    howard pigdon
    I promise you ,talk to Murray before trying anything else.
    Brilliant engineer just nearly finished BB nut and bolt.
    Not just waterjet cutting he has many milspec contracts going in place right now
     
  10. christc

    christc Karting

    Mar 3, 2013
    207
    Germany
    Elring is .....
    I was taught not to use bad words;-)

    Do not try Elring again, bern there myself...

    Use other gaskets, e.g. Victor Reinz or better as I already recommended Murray Glegg. Speak to him, it is worth it.

    You can use Hylomar but I prefer VHT copper gasket after using/ comparing both.

    If you use Hylomar use the spray form and apply it evenly to the complete gasket.

    Christopher
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Murray Glegg <murray@gleggman.com>

    He is in Australia and makes a very good quality head gasket.
     
    samsaprunoff likes this.
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    No head gasket should have any sealant or coating applied.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Your conclusion is faulty. Don't bother, Elring is garbage. Besides head gaskets should be applied with nothing on them.......period.
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    18,142
    socal
    What kind of head gasket is he making? Glegg manufacturering looks like a sheetmetal company. So is he making MLS gaskets? If your block heads surfaced for composite make sure surface roughness jives with what you need for MLS which is typically smoother. A big mismatch causes leaks. Some mls makers build for various roughnesses.
     
  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,446
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    He makes composite gaskets as a side project from his metal business. He makes other items as well.
     
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  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    18,142
    socal
    I learned to not use anything on HG's. But when I was responsible for doing the job (meaning if it leaked I was doing it again) I always used copper spray including my own projects. I saw no reason to not use it except some say it makes the heads harder to remove. I have not seen or read anything negative about using the copper spray. People who frown on it never say why? I was taught not to use it but never learned why.

    I have never had a leak even on composite HG race motors I built using spray. We leak test and compression test these motors during race season and never have leaks during their service life. I have never had a leak on Ferraris but I also have not done many Ferrari rebuilds myself in a number of years so not personally current. I pretty much let the rebuilder do everything so he is on the hook for problems unless I'm racing the motor. The last one I did used Elring gasket right from FNA during the time DaveHelms reported this problem on Fchat and resorted to gaskets of his own sourcing or design. He was basically saying at the time"hey guys...there is a problem for years and I finally got a solution" , when most of us did not know we had a problem. I was ignorant of a problem but I was using copper spray which seems to disguise any problem. Today, there are a few others who will remain nameless routinely rebuilding motors with FNA sourced Elring HG's having no problems but using copper spray. I know this because we have had that discussion. Hummm.....

    The other thing is Ferrari is presumably still using these defective Elring HGs on their newly delivered cars. For some reason these new cars are not suffering HG failures. In fact we hear of no HG failures in the old fleet of Ferraris going back decades where block and heads have not been violated for other reasons. Why is that? What is Ferrari factory doing differently using the same Elring HG that isn't being done outside the factory?

    The other curious thing is that every autoparts store has copper spray right on the shelf. It goes bad like old paint in a spraycan so there has to be some turnover there. For some reason it is always available for a job that frankly isn't done very often vs all the water pumps brake rotors etc... To me that means it sells or the stores would not have it. We could all be herd animals following each other off the cliff or maybe the stuff works?

    I sure would like to see some science...
     
  17. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,446
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Ive been using Cometic composite gaskets as long as I can remember and zero problems ever. Not so much as a drip on a fresh build pressure test prior to install. They have no sealant beads around any of the ports, just a simple basic gasket that's the right hardness for my liking and it does the job whether the block was decked or not. Liner protrusion is always checked of course and corrected if needed. They make them to order, they ask for my bore size so we keep my quench area down rather than a safe oversize and desired thickness. $189 a pair too.
     
  18. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,070
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Gentlemen,

    Thank you very much! I chatted with Gleggy a few years ago (wow time sure flies) and so I will ensure to chat to him about some of his head gaskets!.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  19. Gleggy

    Gleggy Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2004
    1,146
    Land of Oz
    Full Name:
    Gleggy
    Hi to all,

    I have been asked to post here concerning the gaskets.

    Our manufacturing list extends from the 195, 225, 250 inside plug, 250 outside plug,275, 308 2V, 308 QV, 330,365, 512BB, 246 Dino, 206 fiat, 130 fiat.

    Also, the Lambo gaskets to suit the Countach, Espada, Miura. And no, I haven't turned to the dark side.

    Standard gasket configuration and bore sizes apply. However, for badly corroded heads and blocks, where more material has to be removed, oversize 2mm gaskets can be ordered.

    Also, if oversize bores are being used for a "hotted" up version of your steed oversized fire rings can be installed for custom applications. Gaskets are sold in pairs (1 set) sealed in boxed container and you are buying direct from the manufacturer.

    Paul is spot on as usual, liner height is critical; as it is known that even from the factory liners have been known to be installed incorrectly. So even if you don't use my gaskets check your heights.

    It’s not the first time I have been contacted to establish if my gaskets can work miracles because a shop has machined the deck and liners dead flat only to realize the enormity of their mistake.

    No product can overcome bad work practices. My website is non- operational at the moment (apologies), so if you need to contact me my email is - murray@gleggman.com

    I hope this helps
     
  20. simon klein

    simon klein F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 25, 2009
    15,383
    North Qld
    Full Name:
    simon klein
    Murray's brother is the waterjet bloke.
    Murray is a diehard Ferrari enthusiast who is a brilliant engineer and designer.

    Again murray@gleggman.com

    Ammendment: I have just got off the phone to my and Murrays mechanic Enzotech.
    He advises that he he's never had a problem using Elring IF you spray them with Hylomar.
     
  21. Gleggy

    Gleggy Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2004
    1,146
    Land of Oz
    Full Name:
    Gleggy
    That may have been the case when he was using them, which I might add was some time ago, as in more than a few years.
    Marc no longer uses them and only uses my gaskets on his engine builds. Fact.
     
  22. moserpe

    moserpe Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    137
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Peter Moser
    Thanks again to all those who have contributed to this topic. I have actually solved the problem of leakage, although committing two sins. Firstly, I have reused the ELRING gasket again after it had been compressed in a first attempt and was leaking. Secondly, I have applied Three-Bond sealing paste as recommended by my engine specialist after we have found the liners (without touching the block and liners after removing the head) protruding too high (0.15 mm) out of the block. Now, I can understand why the old gasket was fitted with sealing paste and why the nuts had been fixed with a torque high above normal.

    Unfortunately, I'm confronted with a new problem: oil pressure does not build up with the engine idling. Being aware that the whole system was dry after opening the oil sump cover for cleaning from the intruded cooling liquid, i have removed the oil filters and have filled up the oil ducts before attempting to start the engine. This should actually fill up the oil radiator and the pump as well.
    I'm used to the fact that it takes quite some time to bild-up oil pressure e.g. after changing oil and filters, but here, I feared damage to the engine after may be 45 seconds of engine at 1000 rpm with the red warning light on. Any suggestions how to get the lubrication system to work safely? Apply vacuum to the hose from the pump to the radiator? Install external electric oil pump to lubricate the engine until the pump pressure is building up?

    Regards, Peter
     
  23. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    377
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    If you've got a big battery, just crank the engine without ignition. This will give the pump time to push some oil, before actually firing the engine. I've got a geared starter which makes this easier. I am only doing this when the car has remained in storage for a long period.
     
  24. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    18,142
    socal
    Peter...I don't even know what motor you are building but in general all kinds of bad unpredictable things happen when liner protrusion spec is not followed. Then running the motor dry for nearly a minute sounds catastrophic. I have never hard that happen so have no clue how much damage could be done. I would start over. The most important step in rebuilding a motor is the one you are on and every part has to be in spec. You have to get oil pressure on startup similar to when you just changed the oil. Before startup prime the oil pump by filling the system just as if the pump has run. I have always found a place to inject oil under pressure to fill a system. Some motors you can turn the oil pump. Some fill it and crank motor not allowing it to start watching for oil pressure rise.
     
  25. fcf

    fcf Rookie

    Jan 30, 2015
    35
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Frank
    Hello,
    we tried some gaskets
    Only Elring + Dirko HT red is working properly
    Frank
     

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