Cylinder head washers stuck - any ideas to remove? | FerrariChat
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Cylinder head washers stuck - any ideas to remove?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by freelapl, Aug 5, 2013.

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  1. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #1 freelapl, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I recently started to undertake a complete motor overhaul on my 3.0QV mondial, and was doing great on it right up to the point of trying to remove the cylinder head....several of the washers seem really seated tightly and having a tough time removing them. I used the Ferrari tool AV1393 to remove the nuts, but after soaking them in various spray penetrants I was able to remove all but a couple of them. In the attached photos you can see what it looks like when I have the washer out, and on the other photo in the top stud you can see the washer still stuck in there.....very frustrating!

    Does anyone have suggestions as to how to remove these stubborn washers? I cannot get them to spin or have any motion, and have been very careful not to damage them - I used a heavy magnet to get the others out. I'm open to any and all ideas!
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  2. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #2 soucorp, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
    I'm no genius about these things but I would try a heat gun to expand the metal and maybe use a bag of crushed ice cubes to contract it only in that area... after that, more lubes, a picking device, a few blows with a rubber mallet, and use the heavy magnet and see if it makes a diff...
     
  3. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #3 freelapl, Aug 5, 2013
    Thanks Mike, I will try that for sure. I did get a can of a spray freon-type coolant and tried to spray it on the stud to constrict it but no luck. I will see if there is a way to maybe heat it all up to expand as you suggest and then allow it to cool & contract - hopefully doing a few cycles of that will free it up.
     
  4. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #4 4th_gear, Aug 5, 2013
    Try touching a soldering iron to a spot on the washer to heat it up. As the washer heats up it should expand slightly and your penetrants would be able to get under the washer more easily and break the seal. Uneven application of heat on the washer should also cause them to twist slightly, possibly help loosen them.

    I think what's holding the washers is actually vacuum, formed when the edges are sealed. You need to break the vacuum.
     
  5. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #5 freelapl, Aug 5, 2013
    Thanks Michael, that makes sense and I had not thought of trying that approach with a soldering iron. Will give it a try today!
     
  6. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

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    #6 st@ven, Aug 5, 2013
    If you have the heads of it Will be easy to remove the washers. Why bother now?
     
  7. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #7 freelapl, Aug 5, 2013
    Thats the problem.....I can't get the heads off at the present time. There are 3 washers remaining on one side and 4 on the other that I cannot remove, and it's an extremely tight fit. So tight in fact that it binds and prevents me from being able to remove the cylinder head assembly off of the block to access the pistons and rest of the engine.

    I don't want to use a crowbar and try to pry it only to damage or break-off those studs - my guess is that once all of the washers are removed I will be able to apply even pressure around each cylinder head assy and remove them from the rest of the engine. It looks like from the shop manual and drawings that once all 10 washers on each cylinder head are off I should be able to remove the head assy without any other obstructions.

    Have you seen this issue before? Any suggestions?
     
  8. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
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    #8 davebdave, Aug 5, 2013
    Maybe lock two nuts and pull the studs? Even with the washers out the heads may not come off easily.

    Dave
     
  9. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    #9 Bell Bloke, Aug 5, 2013
    Hi there first of all I would agree with St@ven and would add that the washers are not keeping the head on it will most probably be corroded slightly to the studs.
    First thing is don't be tempted to remove the studs or anything like that as that can cause some nasty issues, anyway you can't on the Ferrari...
    Now obviously you will need to run plenty of penatrating oil down those studs and leave for a day or so the next thing is to lash a rope around the head and apply a pulling force to it..
    BUT this force MUST BE PARALLEL to the studs.
    Sometimes the head even when being pulled quite hard will refuse to release.
    If this happens be patient and leave it overnight with the pulling force applied, it will eventually release.
    I did this to a Lamborghini Muira, it's a long head and was corroded solid, fortunately it was the one away from the firewall. So I put a rope round the head and rigged the engine hoist in a way that it would pull parallel, applied a sensible pulling force and nothing happened.
    With the force applied I hit the head with HIDE and RUBBER mallets but nothing moved.
    So I put lots of penetrating oil down the studs and left it overnight. The next morning I could see that it had moved by 1/4 of and inch....IT WAS FREE!! Hoorahh!
    The Mondial is a four pot head and so is much smaller and will probably be easy to get off.

    BUT I always make it a rule to NEVER ever hit, lever or prise the head off with anything harder than and piece of wood.
    In fact a block of wood and a mallet are good tools for just breaking that seal between the head and the block to get things free, but if it doesn't move then resort to the method above.
    I have seen some horrible evidence of folks using big screwdrivers as levers!! TERRIBLE!

    Good luck, keep us posted, regards Bell. ;-)
     
  10. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

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    #10 st@ven, Aug 5, 2013
    Take my word, the washers are not the problem. The holes in the head are very small and leave barely room for the stuts. Over the years oxide Will form between the heads material and the studs basically binding them. This is a pretty common problem. I had it once with my gtb and ended up hanging the complete engine on one head. After a week of daily adding penetrating oil and gently hitting the studs the head came loose. It a matter of patience.....
     
  11. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    #11 Bell Bloke, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    St@ven is right it's just a matter of penetrating oil, pressure and patience.
    However if after all has failed it still won't move then here is a quick illustration of how to use a rope and an engine lift to remove heads gently and evenly.
    Note that the engine lift will need to be restrained so that it pulls at the angle shown.
    Also if the head closest to the firewall is frozen on then the engine will have to be removed to use this method.

    Might I also suggest that the studs are delicate and the threads can be damaged if you hit them, you don't want to get into removing them as they can be corroded into the block and are best left alone. Better really to lever the heads with hardwood this will not damage anything. It's all about appliying the correct pressure and evenly.
    You would do well to have a friend lever one end of the head with a wooden lever whilst you do the other.
    All the best, Bell.
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  12. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #12 freelapl, Aug 5, 2013
    Thanks Bell and Steven, these sound like excellent approaches. I'm being VERY careful with the motor, and want to proceed very slowly so as not to damage things. I will try some of the localized heating with a soldering iron, and see if that helps.

    When I started this a few days ago I did put several different types of penetrating oil on it, and have essentially kept it bathed in this oil non-stop. I did not set it up to apply pressure, so will move to that phase next. I am definately not in a hurry and will be able to give it whatever time and patience is needed to free this up - I am also glad to hear that this is not a unique situation and that others have seen this before.

    Thank you everyone for your help on this!!!! :)
     
  13. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

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    #13 PV Dirk, Aug 6, 2013
    Pete,

    These fellows are right about the corrosion. Some are worse than others. I know one tech created plates for pulling the heads. You might do some further research here as several people have had the same problem. There are likely to be more suggestions that will help in your process.

    Good luck.
     
  14. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #14 freelapl, Aug 15, 2013
    Quick update on this project......it still hasnt been able to come off. I tried everything suggested and was able to get one more washer out, but no more. It was suspended for a week, with daily injections of lubricant but no luck.

    In talking with a few other mechanics, the suggestion now is to fill the cylinders with oil, and turn the crank manually slowly to build up hydrostatic pressure in the cylinders - the thought being that it will apply even pressure and force the head loose. Has anyone tried this before? Any suggestions?
     
  15. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 Wade, Aug 15, 2013
    Sounds familiar...

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/348054-1987-ferrari-testarossa-head-removal-stuck-bad.html
     
  16. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
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    #16 davebdave, Aug 15, 2013
  17. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #17 2NA, Aug 15, 2013
    This would never work, there is a lot more going on than a rope could ever conquer.

    Interesting that you show a picture of a Miura engine. I've had quite a bit of experience there. They are not subject to the same stuck head problems as Ferrari V8s. The heads lift right off once the nuts are removed.
     
  18. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #18 2NA, Aug 15, 2013
    You might get movement (I wouldn't bet on it) but only a few thousanths of an inch until the fluid leaked past the head gasket.

    It is quite likely (discussed many times here) that the studs are securely bonded to the heads by corrosion and quite possibly will be a fight to get off. There have been pullers fabricated to do the job but the design of the Ferrari heads (no direct access to the top of the studs) makes a straightforward approach difficult. The Testarossa thread shows what you're up against.

    Good Luck
     
  19. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 ernie, Aug 15, 2013
    Have you tried 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid & acetone as a penetrant yet?
     
  20. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    #20 Bell Bloke, Aug 16, 2013
    I used Parafin as a penetrating oil or Kerosene as it is known as across the pond.
    I am working over at Ferrari next week I will talk to some of the old boys who know more than the new crowd and see it they have any other ideas.
    Like I said it has always worked for me but you may have more corrosion than I had.
    Maybe Ferraris engine alloy is inferior to that of the Lambos and Astons and corrodes far more. Using a hydraulic method could work but I would want to know about how much stress I was putting through the connecting rods doing it like that. Better safe than sorry.
     
  21. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    #21 Bell Bloke, Aug 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi I've I've found some shots from my archive, hoorah ;-).
    I can't find any of my Muira engine build, I think I did do some video though, but anyway here is my Jarama engine build, (same engine as the Muira) both these heads were stuck fast, you can see the studs corroded in the pic.
    Here are the heads fresh off the car and then at the machine shop having new guides and hardened valve seats for unleaed fuel.
    Here also is the Lambo Islero after having the same treatment.
    And finally here is a pic of a friend with and my Countach 25th Anniversary just for fun.
    I hope if nothing else these pics will show that you are not alone here, all of these heads were a sod to get off, but I will speak to Ferrari Lads for you and see what they say.
    All the best, Bell.
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  22. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #22 freelapl, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I appreciate the help on this, its definately been a learning experience! I've been trying everything suggested and have finally made some progress. I increased the local heating of the washers by using a small butane torch (little hotter than soldering iron) and was able to get the washers removed. Unfortunately the head would still not budge, so tried the hydro pressure method with oil in the cylinders and turning crankshaft - a little seepage of oil showed up along a few spots on the gasket, indicating that there was some movement - yahoo!

    Next, the engine was set up in the process that Bell described. We had access to a forklift that wasn't being used very much, and since we could play with heights and angles on it we found that it worked well to suspend the engine from in order to apply the force needed (see pics). Although somewhat "ghetto" this seems to be helping - after leaving it overnight a little more movement was observed :) Still not enough yet to get it to come free, but at least seem to be on the right path. In this approach the engine is still attached to the rear frame as we removed it from the car, so we have that added weight as well. There is a mechanical jack to lock the forklift into place (with hydraulics alone it would sink down overnight) and the unit is only suspended about 1/2 inch above a series of old tires and other mechanical blocks - if the head frees completely it would only drop that 1/2 inch before being stopped. We don't want to damage anything!!!

    As for penetrant, have been using various autoshop products like "liquid wrench" and a couple of other varients. Will continue monitoring it, and am putting in fresh penetrant every 4-6 hours during the day. If that doesnt work this week then will try the other mixtures recommended.

    BTW thanks for the Testarossa link - the first thing I did with this problem was search the archives and couldnt find anything with enough detail - but was only looking in the forums for 8 cylinder cars. This definately helps, and as its been said I'm both glad and bummed to hear that this is not uncommon. Hopefully this thread will be helpful to others.....I know this involves patience so not in a hurry to do to this right!
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  23. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    #23 Bell Bloke, Aug 19, 2013
    Looking good, thats exactly the way I would do it letting the weight of the engine do the work. Just be patient, I've known them to take a week to come off but they always do. ;-)
    I like this method because it doesn't force anything and that way nothing will get damaged.
    Good luck keep us posted, all the best, Bell.
     
  24. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

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    #24 freelapl, Aug 19, 2013
    Will do Bell, thanks for the help and really like your car collection!! Please let me know if you do hear of any suggestions while you are at Ferrari - definately curious to see if they have addressed this as a design or maintenance issue, or if they see it as just the occasional isolated incident.

    Current plan is to let the motor hang for the next week with daily doses of "Liquid Wrench" and the occasional light tapping with a rubber mallet. If that doesnt work then will resort to building some kind of a tool similar to what was used in the threads on the 87 Testarossa engine issue.

    Thanks, and will keep everyone posted on how it goes!
     
  25. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie

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    #25 MvT, Aug 20, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
    Why not use a stud remover tool? It's not a costly tool actually. If I am not mistaken you can get them for around 80 USD. However, the pallet you are using and lift truck looks far more challenging :D
     
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