News

Dante's Major Service

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Journiacois, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    It's been about 5 years and 25,000 kilometers since I did a major service on Dante, my 85 QV. Yes, I've done basic upkeep and repair on things but other than replacing the fuse panel and some odds and ends, nothing much had to be done. So using this opportunity to have it in the shop, I'm having the entire car gone over. The first thing was of course the normal kit from Superformance with belts, tensioners and plugs, distributor and rotors, filters and all the normal things to replace. They found that the water pump had been leaking so that was a good thing to replace as a regular part of major service.

    I knew I have a clutch cylinder problem as the pedal was sticking down, locking me in gear. and there was moisture on the inside fire wall behind the clutch. That made for scary times pulling it into the garage with my other cars sitting there waiting to be hit. Had to kill the engine several times. So both the master and slave cylinders are being replaced.

    Yesterday they took apart the clutch assembly and found the clutch plate totally worn down and the release bearing shot so those get replaced along with the pressure plate. You also need to replace the crankshaft spigot bearing. So I guess my entire clutch system needed redoing.

    Also had to order new brake pads as those were also worn down. A couple more systems to go. Next up is cleaning and if necessary replacing the injectors. Then adjusting the valve lifters which I dont think has been done since the car was new or at least in the 7 years and 40K I've had it.

    The other thing is to do with my fuel tank. When I fill it too fast there is a gas fume smell that fills the cockpit until the tank goes down a bit. So checking all the hoses to insure it is venting properly.

    And of course they will go over all hoses and lines and anything that might have worn out. There are a few other minor repairs and steam cleaning of the engine compartment that will also get don. So far, I'm in for about 2000 Euros in parts and new rear tires. Hopefully, unless they find something under the valve covers or in the injection system, that should be about it.

    I decided to have this done at my regular mechanic who had been in business for 25 years. He has done a lot of work for me including rebuilding the motor on my Porsche and restoring my Fiat spider so I have great confidence in him. He treats the cars with care and his rate is very, very reasonable. When I asked him if he wanted to undertake the project, he said, "Gerald, its a motor, not a jewel! " And in fact, I had taken Dante in to the local Ferrari "specialist'" regarding the clutch sticking problem last summer and he declared that there was nothing wrong with the cylinders or the clutch. It cost me 600 Euros to get that feedback. When it happened again, I took it to Phil who diagnosed it in a minute. That's when I decided to ask him to do the work.

    I'll update this post as things move along. New members are always asking about the major service issue and costs. I'm hoping this will give a good idea of what can be involved and what it should cost.




    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Il Steeg, paulchua, davem and 3 others like this.
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 21, 2004
    1,697
    Argent/Brasil
    Full Name:
    Guido
    Good luck with the repairs...fuel smell = can be the fuel tanks itself are loosing fuel somewhere on the upper half. You have to check the tanks completly not only the hoses.
     
  4. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 9, 2014
    3,975
    Frisco, Tx
    Full Name:
    Sid
    On my 85 QV, the fuel smell came from "weeping" fuel lines. They weren't leaking drops -- so you didn't see anything on the ground. But they were weeping/seeping small amounts through the hoses themselves.

    As long as you are in there, it's a good idea to replace all the fuel lines.

    Sid
     
  5. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Thanks for the advice on the fuel hoses and tank. I will certainly add that to the list of things to do.
     
  6. stekkefun4

    stekkefun4 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2006
    2,209
    Belgium - Europe
    Nice to hear you're preparing Dante for September ;)
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Reason numero uno. But obviously, it is something that was needed to be done.
     
  9. DocBasilone

    DocBasilone Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 15, 2020
    93
    NW PA
    2000 Euros Thats All??? sign me up
     
  10. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Well, it\s not ALL. As I said initially, there will be things they discover as they go along. And today, I had to order front brake discs as the old ones are getting irregular wear so a good thing to do now. And also oil and transmission sump gaskets. That bumped up the parts price by another 415 Euros Including french VAT and customs duties now that Superformance is outside the EU.

    And in a cosmetic decision, one of those while I'm at it ones, I've decided to have the wheel rims refurbished and powder coated. Over the years I've brushed a couple of curbs and have scraped the rims in a few places. I have the replacements for the original TRX metric rims that came with the car. When they do this, it also trues up the wheels so they are better balanced and roll straight and ultimately makes them stronger and more resistant to future close shaves. That will add 600 Euros to the cost. Now I'm up to about 3K Euros. It goes up quick! However, I note again, that includes a thousand for new rear tires and powder coating the wheels, not for engine/drive train parts. So yes, actual revision, repair, replacement parts is at around 2k Euros

    Phil, my mechanic, showed me the residue from the old fuel filter. It was last replaced 4 years ago. The color was almost black. Obviously something that should have been replaced before. I guess it was very clogged and has been affecting performance for some time.

    Next up they take off the valve covers and adjust the valves. Hopefully we wont find anything wrong in there and it will just be mechanic time and replacement of all the gaskets which have already been paid for.. Then he'll attack the injection system. To my knowledge, neither of those systems have ever been touched
     
  11. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    So far so good. Brakes all done with new discs on front and pads all around. Brake system flushed and bled. Lifters all in spec so just replacement of all gaskets and o-rings. Next up is the injection system.. And still to come is the fuel smell and non functioning gas gauge to sort out.

    And one lucky find. As I wrote above, I decided to have the wheels refinished and powder coated. Good thing too. After sandblasting, they found that the wheel that had hit the curb had a hairline crack on the circular piece around the hub where the 5 spokes attach. Don't know how dangerous but it was about 3/4s of the way around. Who knows if some bump at speed or a tight curve maneuver might have broken it totally. But now it has been welded and polished and good as new. Actually they are all better than new as they were trued and balanced and now powder coated instead of the paint that they are sent out with.

    In the "while I'm at it" category, I wanted to have the paint refreshed and now have added putting a ceramic finish on top. Its getting to the can't wait to get it back stage.
     
    2cam likes this.
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. ronfrohock

    ronfrohock F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 16, 2004
    3,190
    MA
    Full Name:
    Ron Frohock
    This is quite a major!
     
  14. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Well, given my advancing age and the loss of this last year and some of this until we get vaccinated and I can get out on the road again, I want the car to be well prepped for some significant usage this year and next. If I had just wanted to do the basic major and the required brake and clutch redo from normal use, I'd be getting out money wise for around 3k Euros.

    To my knowledge, none of the systems such as lifters, fuel, or injectors had ever been touched or looked at. So along with the cosmetic things I'm having done (rims, tires, exterior finish revived, seat repair), and with the additional labor I'm asking for going through all the systems and replacing just about every gasket, and assuming they dont find something in those other systems, I should get out for around 6K Euros. If they find something, it goes up from there.

    What has been excellent news is the overall condition looks pretty good after 36 years and 60+ K. I dont know if I'm lucky or it just shows the basic quality put into the building of the car and motor. The cosmetic things such as the wheels and exterior and seat repair are to bring the visual look up with the mechanical quality. It deserves to look as good as it runs. And in all likelihood, this is probably the last time I'll have to do a major. I'll either be too old or too dead before another one.is required.
     
    2cam likes this.
  15. ronfrohock

    ronfrohock F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 16, 2004
    3,190
    MA
    Full Name:
    Ron Frohock
    The prices you are sharing are about 2x in the states.
    Good for you! I hope you enjoy the hell out of that car. I bet you will!


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  16. 2cam

    2cam Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2014
    634
    Austin, Texas
    Full Name:
    MikeS
    I wonder why that is? Perhaps the cost of living in the Dordogne region of France is less than that of major cities in the U.S.?

    2cam
     
  17. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    The one difference is that I'm using just a basic, good guy, experienced mechanic, not an fcar specialist. That guy would be charging me 2 or 3 times the labor costs with the meter running constantly. Phil has tried to do the work without adding to his bill. For instance,he said everything that could be done by his "apprentice" which is a trained young guy out of the fench system of education specialty for mechanics, would not be charged as that guys time is already paid for by the government as a training cost. So for instance,installing new brake rotors and pads or mounting tires to my new rims,, not exactly a technical skill, will be done without labor cost. All the parts come from superormance so that is a standard for everyone in Europe. But I only pay for labor requiring skill and expertise. I'm not paying the Ferrari price for what is basic motor skills. And I'm choosing to add on the cost of powder coated rims, ceramic polish and the seat repair for my own desire to make it look great.

    I suppose if I had a later model exotic fcar with computers and other special systems, this would not be the way to go. But that is the advantage o owning a Mondial. If you are a wrench guy, you can do it yourself. If you aint, like me, a good mechanic you trust, can do it for you charging the same rate as he would to fix any old motor. Of course the fact that I have over 10 years of history with Phil, knowing the attention he pays, the quality he gives, and the pride he takes in caring for a ferrari, (he posts it on his website-after asking me) gave me the confidence to entrust the revision to him. . He wants to keep my business, With3 old cars, there is always one or another needing something. So even in France, despite what you may have heard, customer service is a good thing

    One other thing, Phil lets me do the sourcing or parts and supplies. I've done the ordering or all the mechanical stuff from superformance. Plus, I \ve sourced the Redline 75w90 gear box oil and special 10W50 motor oil. I had trouble finding it here in france. Ordering from the US is big pain in shipping and customs. But I found a specialty place in England, carservicepacks.co.uk that provides high quality lubricants. They have gone out of their way to get me what I needed as quickly as possible. So I've been able to do the research and ordering of supplies without costs to my mechanic. And of course, it has kept me engaged in the process, doing the things I can do.
     
  18. stekkefun4

    stekkefun4 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2006
    2,209
    Belgium - Europe
    That makes me wonder if I should start offering renewables like oil and belts myself.
     
  19. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Well, when you look at the revision 'Kit" from superformance, it is belts, tensioners, spark plugs, filters, drain plugs. They also have ENI brand transmission 75W140 and 10W40 motor oils. The stated oil for my mondi is 10W50 but lack of availability usually means I go with 10W40. So they did not have exactly what I was looking for in terms of lubrication.

    I found both the Redline 75w90 and a high performance Fuchs Titan 10w50 motor oils at the specialty supplier noted above. When you add the Brexit customs price bump of 9%, then shipping costs that adds roughly 100 Euros for the amount needed to insure delivery sooner than 3 weeks, the price adds up to over 300 Euros. Had I found the brands and specs I wanted inside the EU, shipping would be less and customs not a question.

    So the question for you Stekke is,do the margins for stocking and shipping make it worth your while and give us inside the EU enough of a price advantage? Perhaps I could have found the high performance engine oil in the EU. But the Redline did not appear available except from the US or GB when I searched Amazon/Ebay or just the product itself. My past experience with the Redline made it a necessity for me. So I paid the price to get it and found they had a high quality spec motor oil so packaged the deal. https://www.carservicepacks.co.uk/service-kits-by-car/

    The same I guess goes for belts which are not all that expensive from Superformance but must add in the shipping and 9% brexit customs charges.Can you make enough to make it worth your while and enough of an advantage for us continental customers? I assume I could have found spark plugs locally but it was easier to just buy the kits including filters and tensioners.

    Hope this helps.
     
  20. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Well, so it goes. Upon removing the injectors an expert in such things to which Phil sent them declares they should be replaced. Doing some research, I find that the original versions (#0437502010) made of steel were stopped being made a decade ago so are now not available. The replacement from Bosche, part #0437502047, are made of brass. They are made in Germany but only seem to be available over the net from GB. The guy here does have the replacements at about 10 Euros a piece more expensive. But when I add in shipping, Brexit 10% customs charge, and cost of the gaskets, the advantage of immediacy and local supplier/guarantee and getting the job done, makes me go ahead at a cost of 37Euros each. So that adds roughly 300 Euros to the parts bill.

    Looking for suggestions to replace the fuel sending unit/float

    The last system to be addressed will be the fuel tank and gauge. There's gas vapor smell when filling too fast or too full that takes about 30k of driving to go away. So am replacing all rubber hoses and checking tank for leaks. The problem with the gauge, which always shows full, is likely to be the float in the sending unit from the tank no longer having buoyancy. I'm told that the sending units are not available anywhere If anyone has a suggestion as to how I might replace it or find the float, I would appreciate it.

    So getting close on all the mechanical stuff once the fuel system is sorted. Then on to the cosmetics of paint/polish and a decision on the interior.
     
  21. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 21, 2004
    1,697
    Argent/Brasil
    Full Name:
    Guido
    [QUOTE=". The replacement from Bosche, part #0437502047, are made of brass. They are made in Germany but only seem to be available over the net from GB. The guy here does have the replacements at about 10 Euros a piece more expensive. But when I add in shipping, Brexit 10% customs charge, and cost of the gaskets, the advantage of immediacy and local supplier/guarantee and getting the job done, makes me go ahead at a cost of 37Euros each. So that adds roughly 300 Euros to the parts bill..[/QUOTE]
    https://www.winparts.be/motordelen--amp--toebehoren/motordelen--amp--toebehoren/brandstof-systeem/injector--amp--verstuiver/c1187.html?zoek=bosch+0437502047
     
  22. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 28, 2005
    3,854
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Full Name:
    Gordon
    An interesting read on your maintenance project. One question for you, from the photo of your clutch, it looks like it is more worn on the outer diameter than the inner diameter? Is your flywheel facing surface dished to cause that? If so, what are your plans to make your flywheel surface flat? If the flywheel is dished and you put a flat clutch plate in, it will wear the outer diameter surface of the clutch quite quickly again.

    If the flywheel is dished like the clutch, then that might have been part of your clutch actuation problems - when the flywheel and clutch were hot versus cold, any thermal expansion might have caused them to bind together because of the dished surfaces. Flat surfaces would not have the same thermal expansion concerns.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Guido, Thanks for the tip on the injectors. I'm paying 36.50 including the gaskets and no shipping cost. This connection would have saved me maybe 50 Euros or so overall, but I have committed to the local supplier. I hope others out there in the EU make note of this supplier. Mine were original to the car and well used, not giving a good wide gas vapor spray even after cleaning. So a change was necessary..

    Gordon. You raise a very good question which I cant answer. And the clutch assembly is all installed. But I will raise the question with Phil and check his response. As far as the original clutch not returning problem, I did have a definite leak in the master cylinder. That and the slave cylinder has been replaced along with the clutch and pressure plates and Redline filled so I guess I will have to live with what I have now. I'm betting the clutch will outlive me.

    As far as my fuel gauge sticking on full, Phil's opinion is that if the float was saturated and not floating, it would show empty, not full. But he will be troubleshooting it and we will go from there. To be discovered...
     
    ronfrohock likes this.
  24. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Just a quick update. Not a wrench has touched the car this last week. The new injectors are in the shop, not in the car. Nor has the fuel system problems been addressed. Phil does have a guy who "specializes" (whatever that means) in fuel systems coming by to give it a look. Phil has an extremely busy garage so mine sits while he makes money. That was the agreement to start with. Dante has now been in the shop for 6 weeks. In addition to his new car work, he is rebuilding the engine of a Pantera and doing a full body redo and paint on a wrecked Porche Cayman.

    Tomorrow the body man comes by to give it a look and me a price for the polish/ceramic coating. I've asked Phil to keep him low so I can splurge on recovering both seats.

    I'm really starting to want to drive the car again. But we continue to be in lockdown here and a lot of still rainy cold weather ahead. And the french vaccine rollout is a disaster. The US vaccinated more people last weekend than we have done totally here in 3 months. So no place to go anyway. The wait gets harder.
     
  25. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Progress on Hold due to Covid outbreak at the Garage!
    Today, I called Phil to ask how things are going, if the injectors are in, the gas tank issues resolved and the quote from the ceramic polish guy was in. Unfortunately, he had to close the garage last wednesday due to an outbreak of covid.

    Which brings me to another point. Not once when I went there did I ever see anyone, but me, in a mask. Phil has a big business as a taxi repair place. He will instantly put them at the head of the line so that they can get back out on the road. When you think that those guys pick up people everywhere and are in an enclosed space with others, it seems crazy that they would come to Phls and stand around without masks.

    But it seems to me to be a problem of image. That guys coming into garages cant possible succumb to some unseen virus. This has not actually been a problem in most places in France as masks are mandated everywhere, including garages. But the rules often seem disregarded where younger men seem to gather. There is nothing magic in grease and dirt and fumes that is all a preventative. So it all has to do with attitude.

    For whatever reason, including my worry about this over the last 6 weeks that Dante has been in the shop, I have always put on my mask before entering. It could have easily entrapped me as I was there last monday, however briefly, to see what was happening on Dante. Phil told me that they had been so busy nothing had been done so I turned around a left after a minute or so. Someone tested positive on tuesday and they closed on Wednesday. Obviously, I was put in jeopardy as virus shedding is worst in the few days before symptoms occur. It has now been a week and I seem ok. As it happens, I've had to take a covid test this morning for some minor surgery on wednesday. So I'll find out for certain.

    I realize it might be hard for the mechanic guys to wear mask all the time but it would have been for their, and their customers, benefit. Now they are closed for almost 2 weeks. That is lost revenue that did not have to occur. And how many others have now had this passed on to them. Come on guys. Wear your damn masks!
     
    GordonC likes this.
  26. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    Getting Close
    I made my first visit to Phil's garage today since he had to close due to an outbreak of covid a month ago They still wear no masks but say they are ok now as they have immunity. Hmmmm. I still wear my mask and keep my distance. I'm two weeks away from my 1st vaccine shot so dont want to screw it up now after a year of being in lockdown.

    Any way, there has been progress. The injectors are in and the plenum painted and all the motor parts are buttoned up and clean as a whistle. This is the last major mechanical thing to get done. It looks terrific. and I'm kicking myself for not taking a pic. The last project is to sort out the fuel smell and fuel gauge problems. They are waiting on new hoses to replace the old ones.

    Afterburner sent me a great, illustrated guide to triaging the fuel gauge problem. So we find out that the needle in the gauge does go to empty when the power is off and back to full when the key is turned on. According to Afterburner that means that the gauge itself is working. So it may be a dirty contact behind. Also, I remembered that when I got low on fuel after looking at the gauge on the dash saying it was full, the yellow low fuel light came on. Which means that the sending unit is getting power and sending on the signal. That also means that it is likely that the float and sending unit is working as it signals both the warning light and the fuel level. So the hopeful answer is that it is an electrical issue with a dirty contact somewhere in the system. All good news but still can t check off the list until we find out.

    The last major decision is now the cosmetic stuff. The paint has definitely oxidized over the years and has micro swirls. Phil has a professional detailer who will take this on. The big decision is just to use a high quality wax or to do a cover finish of ceramic particles. The ceramic coat adds 300 Euros to the cost and about 3 more years of high quality finish and protection. I have been on line to find out the pros and cons and I guess the pros are far more encouraging. And when I amortize the protection over the likely life of the car with me as the owner, it does not add that much overall so I am likely to give the go ahead.

    The other osmetic decision is the front seats. So far have still not got quote from the interior guy. Between the paint finish and the interior it will add a couple thousand euros more to the bottom line. Both of these last two items are significant value adds to the car. So in a way, I am trying to convince myself that these are investment costs that will pay for themselves when I sell. At leas that is what I will tell the wife! The reality is of course, that I want to do it for me. I have this wonderful driving machine and it should look and feel as good as it runs.

    I haven't done the sums exactly but I figure I have around 2500 Euros in parts, 700 in powder coated wheels, and now an additional 2000 in cosmetic upgrades. The final kicker will be the labor costs. But as you can see, I'm spending more on the cosmetic stuff than on the mechanical stuff. Meanwhile, I will have new brakes, new clutch and master and slave cylinders, new seals/gaskets in the bottom and top of the engine and transmission, new hoses, new belts, filters, pumps and tensioners, new injectors and cleaned fuel system, a cleaned up and painted engine bay, new ignition system and all fuses and relays cleaned and checked. With that, I just convinced myself into doing the cosmetic stuff...not that I needed to be. What else can an old guy spend his money on to have this much fun?!
     
    Il Steeg likes this.
  27. Journiacois

    Journiacois Karting

    Dec 28, 2013
    221
    Dordogne, France
    Full Name:
    Gerald
    I'm repeating the post I just put on the other thread, I'm engaged with which is regarding replacement sending units. Some o you may be reading both but this one is the comprehensive review of my major overhaul and I want this to be the complete record ofwhat I've faced. I'm looking or some wisdom from the mondial gang. It is clear the gauge in the cabin works. Here is what I wrote in the other post:

    I now have to make a decision. The gauge on the instrument panel functions fine. They've cleaned the contacts on the external part of the sending unit but it still does not make the gauge work. So the question is, do I have them dismount the fuel tank so they can take out the sending unit. Is there something worth trying to see if it remedies the problem. It will require a couple hours of mechanic time. If the sending unit or the float are not working, as I understand it, there are no replacement or repair possibilities. Unless there is something left to do with it when removed, other than check current flow, why go to the trouble and expense of removing the tank and extricating the sending unit?

    I'm looking for advice here. Is there one last repair option when having the unit out, that could resolve the problem. Otherwise, I will just live with it as I have the last year and keep track of mileage to know when to refill the tank. And it will save me money to put into some of the cosmetic things.
     

Share This Page