I'm helping out a dog rescue organization and have some questions I'm hoping some of you can answer for me. Right now all of their records are paper only (and only one copy to boot!). I was asking about an email distribution list for news, events, animals for adoption, etc to send out to supporters and past adopters. So it seems that I volunteered to help create a database and hopefully some sort of distribution list to ease communication with everyone. They have a small website but most of the public info goes through the Petfinder website. They also have a free database specifically for shelters and rescue outfits they would like to use. It seems like it will fit the bill pretty well as far as organizing all the adoption records. My questions are then..... What is the best way to set up and run the database? Can I use an old spare desktop for running the database? Would it be better to set up the database on a server and how much work and cost would be involved with doing this? What would be the easiest way to set up some sort of distribution lists to (at least) hundreds of people? Thanks for any help and advice. I hope it's not too apparent that I'm not the most technologically savvy person but I do have some very basic knowledge and skills and I am a quick learner. John
I guess you know you've asked a "tough one" when no one responds.... Lots of Q's in there, but to start with yet more: - Have you ever built a DBMS before? [Do you know a relationship from an index?....] - How many users? [Just you?] - How is data going to be entered/retrieved? [Nowadays of course, generally a browser based interface - Have you done any web development?] There's a bunch more, but for now that'll do..... This DB is under their control? It's running locally on one of their machines? How do they access it? (A browser?) I'm gonna guess it's MYSQL, which is good..... As for "fitting pretty well" that very seldom works! - You'd almost certainly be better off to build a new database containing exactly what you want. [However, having something there already gives you a potential sandpit to play around in - DO NOT DO THIS on the primary system of course!] A "spare desktop" can be configured as a server..... Have you used Linux? I recently came across www.turnkeylinux.org - They make various "packages" available ready to run - Here's an example using mysql & PHPMyAdmin: http://www.turnkeylinux.org/mysql If the above seems to be written in Greek, you're gonna struggle IMHO.... As for mailing lists - If the DB design is "correct", you'll have more ways of selecting target names than you ever imagined! - You kind of get that "for free"..... Good luck, HTH a little! Cheers, Ian PS - For anyone interested - I recently downloaded the Turnkey Linux "Ruby on Rails" appliance as a virtual machine - Fired up Virtual Box, told it where the image was and voila - A beautiful R on R install! - Very cool.
Ian, Thanks for trying to answer my questions. Yeah I kind of figured it was a tough one when I saw so many views and no answers! To answer most of your questions pretty simply, I think I am in over my head, technically speaking anyway! I have no real experience with any of this. Nothing you said was fully Greek to me, but knowing what a term or acronym means and having any kind of knowledge are two very different things! The software that they had tried using is this one.... http://sheltermanager.sourceforge.net/about.php As far as I can tell one of the founders did download it on her computer but didn't get very far trying to use it, mostly due to lack of time it seems. I have all the paper records now and would at least like to get something done so the records are safe. At this point anything is better than nothing but I don't really want to do the work several times either. The other priority is being able to communicate with all these folks easily which is an impossibility right now! So if I download this program on my old spare PC I can run this just as a stand-alone for now right? Of course I would be the only one with access to it this way but it would be a start. Eventually the goal would be for it to be remotely accessible to at least the 4 or 5 people who do the intakes and adoptions as well. Small steps though I suppose. The other option is to pony up some money myself and get some professional help as they don't have the budget to do so. That also explains why I'm the one working on this now!!! Thanks again! John
Copy 'em & put 'em in a fireproof safe?...... Seriously, ensuring safe keeping is a mission by itself - In addition to having two, separately stored, paper records I'm sure you could use a simple "card index" type system (on any OS) to computerize these records..... However; By "the work" I'm starting to suspect you mean "data entry" - I agree, doing it once is a PITA - You certainly don't want to do it again..... Most "card index" type systems will happily export their data in a variety of formats - We'll get back to that..... This is, at least for now, a separate issue IMO - You don't want to lose your punters! - Get 'em loaded into an "address book" with as much info as possible - Again, you'll be able to export this info later, but the longer the delay, the worse the data..... *Awesome* - I didn't even think of seeing if someone else has "been there, done that!" Sourcefourge is a truly wonderful place!...... Given that application and some H/W (plus your enthusiasm!) here's my suggestion: - Grab "any old machine" that's lying around - Pentium 4 or later. It's gotta have a CD drive and network connectivity (wired ethernet would be my choice). - Download Ubuntu Linux - The desktop version for now. "Follow the instructions"....... - Download ASM, install and play. Good luck! Cheers, Ian
Ian, You hit the nail on the head with all of the advice and your interpretations of what I was saying. Thanks again and I'll get started on setting up my spare PC like you suggest. It's older but should be P4 or better. I'll have to check but it should work. This makes things so much clearer with a simple path to get started (or maybe I should say paths!). As I learn more I won't need to ask so many questions either. If you ever make it up to Seattle, I certainly owe you at least a drink if not dinner! Thanks for the help!
One of the beauties of Linux (and particularly Ubuntu) is it's ease of install these days - You're actually going to create an "Ubuntu live" CD and boot the 'puter from that - It "probes" your H/W and determines what drivers etc it needs - If it's happy, let it format the hard drive and install itself...... It'll probably then go to the net to download & install a bunch of updates - It really is easier to install than Windows!...... You're very welcome, and I may take you up on that one of these days. BTW, I did some poking around on the sheltermanager site - They've got a very active user forum which is *great* - It means people are not only using it but help is close by - (search is your friend!). It certainly appears to be a "mature" application in widespread use. There's even a (UK based it seems) hosting company that will store your DB in the cloud (not free of course)..... Good luck, please keep us informed on progress, Cheers, Ian PS - I dunno how "linked in" you are with other shelters close by, but if you could find one that's already using it an hour or two sitting with the system administrator (probably also the receptionist!) would be probably be really helpful - Give you a feel for how it works, what they like & don't like about it etc.
just use access. unless you are tracking every animal in the us or uk i doubt you are going to go over 2 gig. it easy to import stuff to it and lots of documentation for it. lots of stuff like mailing lists reports and dbs already built, you can run it on any desktop and you can export to excel etc. stay away from linux you are gonna wind up in a knot you cant untie after awhile unless you know it already. MYSQL is a POS. sorry but i know its free but you get what you pay for.
Oh dear! This could get to be fun There are *so* many reasons why I disagree with the above I don't know where to start, but I'll list a couple: - It's a friggin' Microsoft product! It costs *big* $ for a license! I know I'm biased (at least I admit it!) but there are so many free alternatives available that I see no reason whatsoever to buy it. - In DBMS terms, it's a toy! The 2G limit is but one of it's limitations. How many concurrent users will it handle? OK, I know this is a fairly "low end" application, but assuming it works "as advertised" I can see everyone in the shelter using it. Maybe vets can directly update remotely - We're up to more than that POS can handle..... If you want a simple, single user, "card index" & "name & address" system, I guess it would do it, but so will Openoffice "Base" or SQL lite - Free! [Obviously, these all run on Windows, Mac OSX, and Linux so you're not locked into M$ nausea.] - There's not a DBMS out there that can't import & export easily! - I'll bet you any money there's more documentation, worked examples, demos and even full applications (see "Animal Shelter Manager" for an apropos example ) for MYsql than Access. I *know* bugs get fixed quicker than M$ can even dream about - The Open Source Community is *awesome* that way. - "Any desktop" - As long as it's running an M$ operating system! Screw that! Bull-friggin-****! How long's it been since you installed a Linux box? This could get really interesting! - I don't know (but am sure we'll find out!) that John has ever used Linux? I guess an "advanced" Windows user (?) He seems prepared to at least "give it a go" - I'm sure he'll have questions (generally answered in an FAQ somewhere of course) but it'll be interesting to read his "progress reports"! Having said all that, Openoffice is a part of the desktop Ubuntu install - There's a "database creation wizard" eek:!) that could certainly handle a card index & contacts database - Good idea! - John - while I reckon ASM (under Linux ) remains the way to go, you could probably use "Base" in Openoffice to set up a couple of simple DB's: 1 - Your supporters! 2 - Your animals - Just looking at the screenshots and reading their forums should be helpful in determining what you want/need. If you get those two up and going you can then hand off the data entry tasks to others "less skilled" than yourself while you play with ASM....... I'm sorry, but I've gotta throw the BS flag on that as well! While it's true it's immensely powerful and scalable it also works great at the "low end". One of the things ASM appears to do for example is allow shelters to add their "inventory" (sorry, that's what it is!) to a larger DB - I'll bet you that's also MYsql..... I guess Google, Yahoo and Boeing, among others don't know a lot about DBMS's either. Cheers, Ian
you might as well be telling the guy to use aix and db2. you are throwing him off a cliff. why makes thing harder than they need to be. honestly you probably dont even need a db if you have less than 65000 of anything just use google spreadsheets and dont mess with the db stuff at all. practice organizing the data with the spreadsheets. treat each spreadsheet like a table and that way IF it grows past that then you can import everything easily into access hehe.
+1 to what Savoy and Ian have said. Access is not a POS, but there is no way you should advise anyone to use it unless they know what they are doing. That is some bad advice. Don't use Access unless you never intend to put the data on the web. Otherwise you will need a MS solution for web hosting, etc. Having just skimmed the first post, here's what I would advise: 1. Google for free subscription management services or products. Use those to manage the addresses for your newsletter subscription. 2. See what's out there for pet adoption that you can adopt. Typically you need to present a picture and a blurb about the pet, and allow people to inquire about a specific pet. No need to reinvent the wheel, or go in with a giant, pneumatic sledgehammer. Keep your eye on the ball: It has to be free, or dirt cheap It has to be easy It has to do what you need It has to be web-enabled I will revisit this when I have more time, hopefully tonight. But what you are asking for does not seem that hard. Certainly you don't need to learn sql or implement an Access server. Keep it simple and break it into manageable components you can handle.
Thanks guys and yes once again Ian you hit the nail on the head. I am what most folks probably consider an above average "user" but I have no programming experience. I have used access databases before and have to say I'm not a big fan either (not much experience setting one up either). I don't want to reinvent anything here and I want to keep it as simple and cheap as possible. To that end I will be using the ASM database as it already seems to be pretty well tried and true for what we need, and it's FREE!! The main reason I've been asking about servers and multiple users remotely accessing the database is that this organization has no brick and mortar location to speak of. They do everything with a few dedicated folks out of their own homes and fostering of the pets until they find homes. So once I can get everything loaded on my spare PC I may end up actually taking it to the board president's house as that seems to be the most central location. BUT, that is far enough down the road that I'm not going to worry about it yet. Here is what I'm thinking my plan of action is.... 1) Get at least one copy of all the paperwork made and stored somewhere other than in a plastic tub. 2) Find and set up some sort of subscription and distribution listing to be able to contact everyone. ( I like Zack's idea for this one!) 3) Set up my PC with the ASM database to manage all the info contained in the all the paperwork. Finally..... figure out the rest as I go along but most importantly.....Help some deserving pets find new, permanent families!! And by the way Zack I'm not looking for listing and adoption services here, they already have that well covered through http://www.petfinder.com/index.html. Thanks again all of you for helping, I'm sure I'll be back with more questions!! John
The ASM database...does it provide the ability to have web access? If not, only one person at a time will be able to use it and he will have to be sitting at the desk where the computer is. Not ideal. If you do choose to do this, put the backup online using dropbox or some other free repository. And set up a script to perform weekly backups. I think dropbox allows for automated uploads, so you only have to worry about leaving the computer on and having connectivity. Can't you just use google spreadsheets? It's dead simple to set it up with forms that you can access from anywhere to populate the spreadsheet. Look at the examples they have. Essentially, you will have created an online database and you won't need to worry about backups, etc., and it's all free. Try it out and if you have any questions, post here. I use google spreadsheets with forms all the time. To get the urls shorter, just run them through bit.ly or tinyurl.com and then post them on a blogger.com webpage so you don't have to keep them memorized. You can even post what you need to capture as far as the data is concerned over here and I will set it up and just make you the owner so you can take it and run with it. If you need to store pictures, it gets a little more convoluted--the solution is to create a photobucket or blogger or flickr account, upload the picture there, then grab the url to the pic and enter it on the form. So...what are you capturing in the database? Hopefully it's just data and not pictures as well. Also, if you are a windows user and have a spare windows system, I recommend installing the ASM database on that. Forget new OSes, etc. Just get a solid base install of Windows 7 or XP, create the recovery disks, and you should be fine.
One more thing...to address your fear of doing the work again and again. Like Ian, I take it you mean the data entry. Enter that in a google spreadsheet. Now it's stored online and backed up and accessible from anywhere. It will allow you to export in Excel format, from where you can import it into any database or export out to any format that your database requires, such as comma delimited, etc. You won't have to enter the data again and again, but you may have to do lots of exports till you get it to slot into your database just right.
Ooops, I typed +1 to both Savoy and Ian, when I meant to voice support for Ian's view over Savoy's. Sorry. BTW, Ian, Access is not a "toy". It is VERY capable. The reason not to use it here is not because it can't do any of the things needed. Rather, it's complete overkill. The learning curve could also an issue, although MS does provide nice wizards that will allow you to do most common tasks without needing to understand how databases work, or relational concepts. I don't recommend it because it's like using a commercial airliner to get to a town 5 miles away.
dont apologize man no need to. There is no right answer just paths that are less painful than others. still dont see an exit strategy for W. what you guys are suggesting will chain him to this forever. Pretty sure there are alot more people that know google spreadsheets or access vs linux and some open source app. Remember once you do this you are taking these people to raise like it or not. So make sure its something somebody else can do with little or no training or nobody needs to mess with it at all after its done. Im pretty sure W you want to move on to bigger better things after and be able to use these people as a reference later on.
...... [Not that there's anything wrong with AIX & DB2 ] Seriously, I completely disagree again! These days, with Ubuntu's "live" install CD it's genuinely easier to get a Linux box up, patched and running than it is with Windows - "It just works!" I'm sure John will get back to us with any Q's he may have, but I for one am hoping he "goes for it" and reports back - I *may* look a complete fool if he "struggles" and reports that the whole mess sucks the big one, but I don't think so..... Hopefully, we're about to find out! 1 - Indeed! 2 - Certainly Zacks idea will get this done. However, other alternatives exist - Personally, I like controlling my data locally, but I'm probably old fashioned that way! [As mentioned above, either OpenOffice "Base" (a DB with creation wizards) or, for this, OO "Calc", their spreadsheet would get you going. As an aside, it will also force you to consider exactly what you want/need included in these records.] 3 - Get Ubuntu going first - At this stage OO is installed and waiting for your membership lists. Once you've built some confidence with it, download ASM and give it a go..... Indeed. It *appears* to be a very comprehensive, pre-built "solution" - Check it out from the links above. What I particularly like is it seems to cover all the bases and has very active support forums - Obviously, this means it's being used and any issues seem to be fixed/answered PDQ. It also interfaces with "petfinder" (and others) which seems like a big deal. In fact, as already noted, you can choose to subscribe and get the whole mess hosted in the cloud - http://www.sheltermanager.com/ I actually just downloaded the demo from the above - It's all Java and ran nicely on my very, very, old G4 Mac - It really does seem extremely cool! It even has a double entry book keeping system.... In fact, following the "don't do stuff twice" mantra, I've "modified" my advice to be get this sucker going and use it's registration module to add your punters from day one! [You can always export it and put it in the cloud later if you want.] OK, I'll concede it's not a toy! Incidentally, OO also provides nice wizards..... We (almost!) agree - Very cool Cheers, Ian
Very good! We can certainly have differences of opinions and, as you said, there are many ways of "skinning the cat" (Sorry for the bad pun!).... As long as we don't resort to religious arguments and name calling, this is good stuff! Again, I disagree on both parts! Linux, MySQL and "some open source apps" are more widely installed and used than Access will ever be! As always, "my 02c", Cheers, Ian
Ian, I don't think he's wrong on the Linux point. It has made inroads in server rooms because of the cost savings, but on the home front it is very much a tinkerer's toy. Windows comes bundled with most pcs that ordinary consumers have been buying, and that is what the world is familiar with. Netbooks and Android and IOS occupy a very small portion of this market, no matter how much it has grown and what the trends indicate. Consider also the people who foster pets. They are mature adults with lives and households to manage, not Linux-savvy kids with lots of spare time to mess around with builds and distros and driver issues. As a (relevant) anecdote, I am VERY computer savvy, and I have been in the computer industry for donkey's years, and I have Linux installed in a virtual machine on my Mac. I have never used it, except to check out what the fuss is all about. I just don't need to. Even the Mac OS--I just started using it 4 months ago, and it still bugs me. Whenever I go to Windows 7, it feels like pulling on a comfortable old coat and I can fly around and get things done very quickly. Mac OS has powerful internals, but the graphical interface is not superior to Windows 7. I have asked numerous Mac people about the issues I have, and they all grudgingly admit that the Mac is indeed lacking on those points, so it's not just me. This isn't about PC vs Mac, obviously, but my point is that once people know how to use something, and can get their work done, there is little reason to convert them to another OS. Access uses the same windows interface elements, and has that familiar windows software feel to it. mySQL's web interface has a kludgey feel to it, and the other front ends you get are all inconsistent. There are no wizards or other ways to automate what you want to do, and having to wait for a screen refresh after every operation gets old very quickly. I don't recommend Access because it's overkill and because there is a learning curve, but I don't recommend Linux and mySQL either. I think just getting the existing program to work would be fine, and for anything more, Google spreadsheets with the built in forms is all that's needed. Remember the criteria: free, simple, online. Linux and mySQL is not the way to go. It's like putting someone through mechanic school before allowing them to drive. Just slap open office on the windows machine you have and go, go, go. Or, use ASM on the Windows machine you have and you will be up and running in no time. If you feel like tinkering, set aside a partition and experiment. Once you have built some confidence, you can switch over to Linux and use the same data. But don't start off with that as your base. It could lead to frustration and giving up in disgust if you come up against something you don't know how to do simply because you don't know your way around the OS.
OK, OK, OK I'll get to working on things as soon as I can For a thread that started out so slow it sure has picked up progress. Unfortunately the progress is starting to make my head swim!! As for the motives behind this, I have a (somtimes more than) full time job and it's not in the tech field as you probably guessed. My motive is purely philanthropic. I understand what you are saying Zack though about exit strategy and other people being able to take over. I'll figure more of that out as I look into ASM and other stuff. I think they could handle it if I need to walk away once I get it up and going. For at least right now I'm sticking with the plan I outlined above. I went and bought a few supplies last night to get started on organizing all the paper and a new monitor so I can set up the old PC. Next I'll do some research (which I already started with your ideas) on the best way to get a contact and distribution list up and going. As a side note to this I started a facebook page for this outfit but without a way to mass contact their supporters it is just languishing with a few of my friends. That's really what got me into this whole mess to begin with!! But I am willing to put in the time and see if I can help them do more good and save more critters. I should have some time this weekend, depending on the weather, to get going on this. And yes, I will keep you guys posted as to my progress. One step at a time though and don't expect miracles as my progress will most likely be a LOT slower than you would like to see!!
I'm gonna vehemently disagree!..... And here's why; I would have agreed with you until very recently BTW, but; I started with it "back in the day", and then used it thru Red Hat 7, Suse, blah, blah. Then I didn't "need" that kind of environment anymore - OSX did everything I needed - Without compiling source, finding libraries etc.... However, I recently needed a "new" machine for a project - It's an old 2.8GHZ P4 with 2G. It has a "reasonable" graphics card, 2 ethernet ports, USB, F/W, both DVD reader & CD burner, speakers, floppy (!), blah, blah..... It was *all*, and I mean 100% all recognised at initial install time by the Live CD - It gives super simple instructions as you go along and warnings when appropriate - Unless you have good reason to do otherwise, go with the defaults. It then connects to mommy and downloads updates in the now accepted fashion. I've gotta be honest, I was really, really, impressed!... Then I started "poking" at it, and more than the average user will ever need is already installed - Except this isn't bloatware, but OO, The Gimp (and F-spot), F/F, a video editor, mail clients, photo viewers, games, etc, etc - No separate downloads needed! Then, I started using it and it got better! It's *rock* solid and fast! [Really! OK, it doesn't scream, but it's more than OK.] I got confident, I installed Apache (painless!), then Virtual Box & a prebuilt VM for it for Ruby on Rails - Again, totally painless! As I said above, John may try it and report that it sucks! - He is after all the "archetypal" target market for Linux - But it really isn't a "tinkerers toy" any longer! [Unless you want it to be of course.....] I couldn't agree more! - These are among the reasons I recommended Linux! We know the H/W is "old" - Wipe it clean and put Ubuntu on it and it'll be like a new machine! IMHO, Linux is about the perfect use for "old" H/W - Someone, somewhere has done a driver for *everything* and nowadays it's automagically loaded - It's so cool! Alternatively, I guess you could do XP - I still have an XP-SP2 license, and last time I installed it was *painful*. We know it won't run 7 of course. Again, in general, +1 However, by your own admission, you're comparing an OS with which you have many years experience with 4 months on the Mac..... As to "needing" to run Linux, I think this is the perfect application [To return somewhat to topic.....] I'm hoping we're about to find out! This *appears* to be a complete, free, solution for animal shelters..... Hopefully, John doesn't mind reporting back! Cheers, Ian
Yeah - You better get moving on this! Sorry about that! - Geeks are all the same, regardless of "stripe" Think of us as your "cheerleaders"! Good to hear you've got a new monitor. Incidentally, at this stage I think doing a separate "address book" will be a waste - Get Linux going, install ASM and take it from there! [I'm that confident!......] Good luck, Cheers, Ian
It's all good and more ideas are never a bad thing! Keep 'em coming and I'll keep trying to figure out what the heck you guys are saying
Ian, Can this ASM not run on Windows, which is already installed on the computer? Why do you keep insisting on Linux, which is not installed and which he is not familiar with?
Supported Platforms Currently, Animal Shelter Manager is known to run under the following operating systems (including all hardware platforms supported by them): Microsoft Windows (NT/2000/XP/Vista/7) Linux (all distributions/platforms) MacOS X NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD UNIX variants (Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc.) Looks like it will run under windows. Not sure why the push for Linux either...
Indeed - Many ways to skin the cat..... I "recommended" Linux prior to any knowledge of ASM. For a few reasons, which I stand behind: - My impression is that it's an "old" machine - Probably XP sp2. However, what else is on it? (Viruses etc?) How up to date is it? Latest security patches applied? Anti-virus stuff? A firewall (configured how?) Bloatware? etc. etc. Given that, I'd choose to wipe the disk and start with a nice clean installation. - Given an empty disk, I honestly believe that installing (and making current) an Ubuntu desktop is easier and less frustrating than Windows - Particularly as it would have to be XP. - John won't have any trouble setting up a nice clean & reliable system [I hope! - Man I'm gonna look a fool if not! - No pressure here dude! ] - It's gotta be easier to get it going with multiple users under Linux than Windows. - It's free! No $ to the Evil Empire! Cheers, Ian
