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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by amenasce, Jan 14, 2004.
Anyone has info ?
It seems to have wider rear arches no ?
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David's a racer. He likes to win. He's still racing his cars. He often modified his cars over the years.
I would like to know why ? It looks amazing with the wider rear.
I saw him at the Circuit des remparts in Angouleme back in 1991 i think..he had his green 917 and a P4..was it yours ?
If P4 was red it was mine. If it was green it was 0900.
Wider wheels = wider tires = faster cornering.
Ferrari did this as well. When they turned the P4 into the 350CanAm they went to wider wheels and tires.
Yep it was the red one. I think my dad has some pics of your car in his office at home ...
Heh please post those pictures I would love to see what Jim's car looked like all together before the restoration ... I have never been able to find that thread
Im in Paris ...My dad is in NY ..
I could ask him but i dont think my dad knows how to use a scanner
When i ll get there i ll scann the pics !
Piper's P4, c/n 0900, spent the first few years of its life in red - it featured in quite a few magazine articles and a couple of books by Godfrey Eaton in the 1980's. In about 1981 Didier Pironi drove it at Montlhery near Paris in the supersports race, and was leading when the engine blew - he never was very mechanically sensitive, or maybe he forgot it wasn't a factory car any more!
The first time I can remember 0900 being in 'Piper green' was in 1992 at the opening of a new circuit in Japan - Aida?
I think that Mr G's car, 0846, was never fully assembled by Piper until it appeared at Goodwood when Mr G bought it, and it then had a P3 engine (24 valves and intakes between the cylinders, not between the cams). Piper told me in 1994 it was in storage somewhere.
Piper's 250LM has been featured in UK magazines, and especially in a book whose title eludes me - I'll look it up at home later. In 1967 it wasn't competitive against GT40's so he cast some special wider alloy wheels (that still complied with the track on the 250LM homologation document) and then made lightweight GRP bodywork, apart from various reliability modifications for Le Mans. In 1968 he was planning to fit a small supercharger which would still have complied with the GT class limit of 5000cc but IIRC the FIA changed the equivalency factor from 1.5 to 2.0, so it was dropped. Piper's car, c/n 8165, was the last 250LM made, he told me it was originally made to experiment with fuel injection which is why the c/n is out of sequence; it was sold to Filipinetti, and Piper bought it from him after he wrote off his previous LM after crashing in fog (!!!) at Snetterton in England - he was finding his braking mark for a corner by counting to three after going into the fog bank but a breeze blew up and the fog moved!
At the Goodwood Revival meeting a couple of years ago, the last 250LM 8165 and the first, c/n 5149, (with short nose, short roof, wire wheels and 3000cc engine) were side-by-side in the paddock, which gave quite a contrast.
Here's a useful site that everyone probably already knows:
thats a great site Macca, thank you!!! i needed some good fcar reading to keep me occupied!
..... Particularly in the light of Macca's subsequent post
Taken at Silverstone, 2001
When David sold me the car it was red.
He also included a newspaper which I remember as being from Angouleme with a picture of the car in red on the cover which he said was the car I was buying.
He also included a photo of it in Japan in red which he said was the car I was buying. He even circled it in his own hand.
He also included a photo of it dated early 70ies in red on a trailer in the UK which he said was the car I was buying.
Andrew asked about Angouleme and I said that I thought that was my car. (Based upon David's representations)
I say representations because the newspaper and photographs were part of a legal document signed by David and the Co. which owned the car I bought as a condition of my buying it. In addition if Mecca is speaking of Goodwood 2000,the year of the John Surtees tribute, he is wrong about the engine. At that time it had the engine that I now own which I believe is an original P4 engine.
Another legal document David signed represented it was an original P4 engine obtained directly from Enzo Ferrari. When we took it apart we confirmed the correct P4 heads. I believe all of David's representations to me were correct. Are you saying they weren't?
That wan't the context in which you made the earlier claim - and I was purely making an observation. Why (again) such an aggressive response ?
Incedentally, did you measure the bore and stroke of this engine while the heads were removed ?
PS - I thought you were ignoring my postings .....
All the information regarding the P4 saga going back an forth is FASCINATING. Im loving it! So much history and cool info!
I think everyone is liking reading all the details and goodies that are coming out as part of the Jim / Paul debate. ITs really great stuff. Still.... it sure would be nice if the goodies came without the undercurrent of ill-feelings. Maybe I'm wrong. Cant a debate as to the history / validity/ identity of a car be nice? I hope you guys keep up the debate and the information..... and play nice doing it. Of coarse its really none of my business.
Asked and Answered: "An original P4 engine" remains "An original P4 engine"
"Another legal document David signed represented it was an original P4 engine obtained directly from Enzo Ferrari. When we took it apart we confirmed the correct P4 heads. I believe all of David's representations to me were correct. Are you saying they weren't?"
Perhaps the engine Harry was alluding to wound up in P5.
This is the ex-Parkes Syracuse GP winning engine, then Jim ?
Harry ? Harry who ? Leventis ?
James, old, small pic, but do you recognise this car?
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Found another one.
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I've seen those photo's but the curve of the top of the windscreen is flatter than the windscreen in my car and in the pic. I spoke of earlier from the front page of "Charente Libre CL Newspaper" marked in David's hand on the back (Of the original photo not the newspaper-David gave me both) "Ferrari P4 330 1988 Sept Angouleme France". I'm speaking of the first photo you posted.
As for the car in the back of the second photo the curve looks closer but neither photo is one of the "Seven Photos of the Ferrari P4 at Races." that David gave me at closing.
I have no idea what engine is in P5 except that I don't believe it's a P4 engine. As I've stated several times I also don't believe that P5 is built on the chassis of 0846.
Harry? Yes. I assumed by asking about the bore and stroke of my engine you were referring to Harry's belief that my engine block is or is sleaved F1 not P4. The document David signed has the header "1967 Ferrari 330 P4" (note 330 P4) "... that were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in 1974 an original 1967 Ferrari engine". The only other parts of my car that David "hereby declare and warrant that were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in 1974... " were "...an original 1967 Ferrari gearbox... and various original 1967 body and suspension parts"
As I said before at the time I bought my car I didn't think the chassis contained the remains of 0846 nor did David in anyway imply that it did.
If I took your question the wrong way I apoligise.
I don't wish in any way to fuel any debate or imply anything whatsoever; I'm just grateful to have the chance to exchange information and see Jim's restoration pictures. So, for info only:
In 1994 Piper kindly let me visit his workshop at his home to photograph 0900 which was being prepared for an event, and I noted a spare P4 engine and gearbox on shelves and a glassfibre spare body shell hanging under the rafters - I have photos of all these but no way of posting them at present. I will compare my photographs with books tonight. Piper did mention to me, I am sure, that he had a 3-l V12 F1 engine, but it wasn't there, nor was the other P3 or P4 that he had told me about in 1993 - he told me it was in store with a friend (and notable Cobra racer) named Bill Shepherd.
0900 was green then; at the Goodwood Revival in 2000 I photographed the red P4 in the Surtees tribute display area and it had a central bulge on the engine cover as if it had a P3 engine, rather than the two ridges of a 36-valve P4; there were also lots of detail differences from the green car I had seen in 1994 and at various other times, so I knew it was another car. Piper raced the green 0900 at Goodwood last September.
Regrettably I did not attend any historic race events before 1987 and so can only depend on British magazine articles and hearsay for that period. I first saw 0900 at Silverstone in 1992 in green.
And I am sure Jim's car is 0846, and I lust to see it!
The P5, IIRC, appeared at the end of 1967 and had the 36-valve F1 engine which they used in late 1966 and early 1967; there was debate for a short while in British magazines about whether it would be turned from a styling exercise into a race car if Ferrari went back on his promise to withdraw from sports-prototype racing, and it was said that the side-exhaust engine was easier to integrate into a closed car.
You're right about the body of the car I bought as you can see from this photo. The engine in the car at that time was the one in the photo in my previous post
(I had agreed to buy the car at that time, we closed , and David shipped the car to me).
PS. P5 isn't too hard to look at either.
Paul (Replica P4)
The person I refereed to as "Harry" in any post should read "Max Wakefield "who as you know is building "0900A".
Max also told me that David had a UK chassis maker make yet another P4 chassis, patterned off of Max's chassis that is being built into yet another car.
Now you've put it in the public domain, Jim, I can say that when I visited Piper in 1994, the GRP P4 bodyshell hanging under the rafters had a chassis frame inside it!
Thanks for that picture, I actually saw it just after I'd posted.
I thought that you were alluding to Harry Leventis (the owner of P3/4 #0844).
As you may have figured, I only live around 40 minutes drive from Tim Samways workshops, near Bicester - and Yes, I have made the odd pilgrimage to pay homage to #0844. Got quite a lot of nice photos of it too, which have been useful for sorting out some details on my replica. But, No, sorry - I've never actually met 'Harry', nor even spoken to him.
But speaking of Max (Wakefield), I'm pleased to say that he's back from South Africa, as of today. Apparently his Lamborghini V-12 powered P4 replica was on pole setting pace but suffered overheating problems in every race.
I believe he's catching up on all the P4-related posts as we speak, so hopefully he'll be joining in the discussions.
Is that a separate car from the one he told me about? From our conversation I assumed he was talking about the car that was hanging from David's rafters and that this was something that was far from finished. (0900A)