David Piper vs Mark Hales

I believe the "Mystery of the Engine's Condition" will be revealed upon the disassembly of the motor. New or Worn pistons, bearings, valves, valve giudes, etc, etc, will shine the brightest light possible on engine's wear factour. Then some paid "Engine Expert" will under oath in a court, will give his evaluation....or course...that expert's evaluation will be refuted by the other parties expert...and Around Goes The Merry-Go-Round of court theatrics....Mark

 

I am baffled by many of the posts on this thread and many other on other sites. Completely baffled.

Mark has admitted to over revving the engine. He agreed to keep it under 7000 rpm but due to a missed gear change it revved to 9000 rpm ... of course it failed. The condition of the engine does not matter, that is a 129% over rev!

The issue is about proper insurance for these road tests. Note he was NOT hired to race the car, he paid to road test it, thus all responsibility should be on his shoulders to ensure the insurance put in place will return the car pefect after ANY incident.

I guess if he had lost control of the car, slammed it into a wall and it had burnt to the ground, somehow you all would still blame Piper and expect Piper to just shug his shoulders and get over the loss (of a car that he has owned since it was brand new!). The Nick Mason cars Hale drives is a completely different story because they have a long personal relationship and understanding.

Note to self: never lend my Alfa to any of you guys, actually never lend anything ...
Pete
ps: I'm no Piper fan ... he has confused the history of many historic cars, but gee whiz. Yes it should not have ended up in court but WE do not know the reasons why it did!. I suggest Mark should have agreed to pay for the costs of the repair over time, ie. a $2000 per month of something ... that is what I would have done.

 

If I was offered your car to drive I would expect you wanted it back in the same condition as you lent it to me. I respect that and would in fact treat it better than my on cars. True. And that would include any defect that happened whilst I was in possession of that car. Unfortunately for me, I would also feel responsible if the car was parked and someone damaged it.

 

Is this 917 really one that he has owned from new? Or is it another of his famous/infamous repilcars?

 

Good question, but same type of engine ...

Pete

 

According to the judgement it was his replica valued at £1.25 m

 

+917.

But everybody has the means of paying ... some just take many years
Pete

 

Posted on Track driver Repsonse from Mark Hales Legal team

http://www.trackdriver.com/Response%20to%20Judgement%20-%20Piper%20v%20Hales.pdf

 

All depends how much blood was drained Kare. And I've damaged my first Ferrari. Was a wake-up call but didn't change my attitude.


Onno

 

Everyone should read this...... Well posted.

 

Thank you for posting this.

I never understood why this went to court in the first place. The penultimate paragraph gives some insight.

"There was a great deal more, but an essential topic not discussed in court was why
the matter was not settled to avoid the need to be there at all. This was because at
first, Octane Magazine - as the policyholder and senior partner - handled all the
negotiations with Mr Piper. This included an offer of settlement, which was rejected.
When Octane's negotiations had run their course and Mr Hales was left to deal with
the matter alone, any goodwill on Mr Piper's part had understandably been
exhausted"

Maybe Octane should contribute to the appeal fund.

 

No maybe about it.......They should pay the whole amount !!!!!!

 

First of all for having a lousy insurance policy. From what I understand if he had crashed the car the insurance would pay. But not if he blow up the engine, obviously not intentionally, but following a malfunction of the selector or whatever that make him miss the right gear.
I guess when one is insuring his car he will read more carefully the policy.
It is true that none of our cars are insured if we blow up an engine for whatever reasons and I blew up 2 coming after some rebuilt by some well known names that I won't quote...but since I changed mechanic, no more issue and I had to pay for the rebuilt as you have no chance to get after a repair shop, even a big one, unless you have a written garantee in hand,,and still..
But when testing third party cars, journalist should have a more comprehensive policy just excluding intentional malpractice even if the cost is higher. Because no one will ever be in position to assess if the head gasket died because it was just old or the car was too hot or revved too much.
Well insurance brokers look at it and prepare your next offering!

 

Looking for a gear way back in 1960.
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I´m sorry, but I don´t quite get the vilification of Octane/Dennis publishing. They were one of the organizations, that Hales was planning to sell his article. Hales set up the test, and owned the rights to the article. He sold the right to print his article, amongst others to Octane. They agreed that the price for the article, would be that Octane would pay for the insurance for the test. This insurance was for a driver error. Octane doesn´t own the article, Hales retains the right in order to sell it to other organizations.

Now why on earth Octane would be responsible, when things went haywire, when they weren´t the organizer of the article, nor did not own the result. Hales set up the test in a manner that he alone would own the rights to the article, so that he could sell it to multiple organizations, in order to maximize his profits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to maximize your profits, but since the commercial exploitation rights were fully his, so were the liabilities.

Why should one of Hales´s customers be liable in any way for what happened during the test?

 

It says David Piper is a "former Formula 1 champion"? I think I'll steer clear of that site. I have contributed to this one though: Track Driver Magazine Team | Mark Hales Piper Case Appeal

 

Versions of the article were also run in 911 & Porsche world and Auto Italia in the UK neither of which are Dennis publications.

No one knows what was said in the negotiations between Octane's insurers and Piper other than what was disclosed in court. It would seem though that an offer was made but not accepted by Piper.

Hales' big mistake (and he has elluded to that in a post on PH) was contracting directly with Piper and not through his company (paragraph 22a of court judgement). There has been mention he would of had appropriate insurance if he had.

 

Its not a vilification of Octane etc and I like yourself don't know the full details. However it was they that set up the insurance......an insurance cover that was to prove totally inadequate. I suspect but don't know that in fact it was Octane who commissioned Hales to write the article......I am told that's the usual practise...... and Hales being an independent was able to sell on to others. IF... Octane's ONLY payment to Hales was to pay for the insurance then that further strengthens my argument as IMO they owe him big time as the insurance cover purchased was insufficient. In reality I suspect the insurers would not have written cover for any gearbox or engine malady.

IMO where Octane fall down is that they are forgetting that most readers purchase these magazines for the interest and quality of the journalism which in turn generates their sales. I note that they attempted to negotiate with Piper so one must presume they felt some responsibility. I also read in one of the'official' statements that nobody from Octane even appeared in court to support Hales which I think is appalling.

Our differing opinions are somewhat hypothetical as nobody knows the full story, there being no statement from Piper to date. I have respected both parties for many years. Hales is without doubt one of the most experienced and careful drivers in the industry and Piper has always been extremely generous in both lending/ hiring his cars and passing on his years of knowledge. They really are nice guys. For these reasons I find it quite extraordinary that this ever came to litigation. What went wrong ? Whatever it was it is certainly unfair that Hales should carry the can on his own. I look forward to reading that Octane have at least made a very generous contribution.

 

Agree. Sounds like it was their insurance and he was working for them in this case.

Pete

 

I am sorry that I quoted you specifically, when I used the word "vilification". I have been following this story for a while on different forums, and my reaction was based on various comments on various forums/blogs.

As far as Octane not appearing in the court, as they weren´t a party in this court case, why would the judge even allowed them to appear? What could they have testified about? A lot of the commentary seems to take the Octanes negotations with Mr. Piper as an admission of liabilty, and later when the insurance didn´t pay, leaving Hales in a bind. Another view would be that Octanes negotiations were an attempt to help Hales, even though they had no legal duty to do so.

When this story broke out, I was one of the first people to suggest setting up a donations account for Mr. Hales. After reading the judgement, and seeing the utterly disqusting character assasination done on various articles and forums on Mr. Piper my feeling about the case is not quite the same.

 

According to the court documents he wasn´t. He was working for himself, and selling the product to various companies.

 

Not a lawyer but would have thought Hales's legal team could have called them in evidence to emphasis the effort made to settle this dispute....if that was so. There is also such a thing as moral support.

Please note that it's not Mark Hales writing these comments that have changed your feelings.

 

I´m not a lawyer either, but have had some experience in the proceedings. In my understanding, judges see "moral support" as a waste of time. The court want facts. I don´t know if anyone from Octane was even present when the damage was done. I am sure that the documents regarding the settlement efforts were made available to the court.

As far as Mark Hales´ comments after the judgement.. My feelings about them are of no importance. In any case, I feel sorry for anyone who is facing a bill such as Mr. Hales is facing now. I´ve enjoyed immensly his writing in the past. It´s a shame that in all probability the reputations of Mr. Hales, Mr Piper and Octane/Dennis publishing will all take hit from this case.

 

Gives a whole new meaning to 'Into The Red'...