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David Piper vs Mark Hales

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Tspringer, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. rubystone

    rubystone Karting

    Mar 11, 2005
    237
    Earth
    Paul, if you know Mark personally, it is highly likely that he will have told you about this some years ago just as he has told people I know. Perhaps he has even made availabe to you the facts he has told them, or maybe he hasn't. It is a shame he didn't settle this when he had the chance to and he had several chances to do that but decided not to...for what it is worth, I cancelled my subscription to a magazine because of some facts that Mark imparted to someone I know.
     
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  3. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Apr 2, 2008
    288
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    Christopher

    Everyone has a point of view. Yours in well taken. But I must remind you this is the FerrariChat, not the PeeWeeHermanChat. How much are you giving by the way? Precisely how much?
     
  4. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,058
    London. UK.
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    Paul Baber
    Mark is not a personal friend of mine. I know him in the business and respect him for being a truly profesional driver and journalist. I knew nothing about his troubles until I first read it on F Chat.
     
  5. rubystone

    rubystone Karting

    Mar 11, 2005
    237
    Earth

    Ah ok, I assumed that since you knew the current state of his financial affairs, you must be close to him...
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    I do feel sorry for Mark, but when it blew he should have got out and said to Piper I'll do what I can to pay for this, it might just take time. Thirty of so thousand pounds later the car would have been fixed and Mark would have been making payments. Instead now 3 years later all that his denial of payment has done is make a few lawyers wealthy and the bill HE has to pay 5 times more!

    He could have sold one of those planes and covered it (?) ... now he will have to sell a heck of a lot more and potentially face bankruptcy.

    Mark made a small driving error, but a considerably larger financial responsibility error ...
    Pete
     
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  8. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2004
    11,083
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    Peter den Biggelaar
    What about shared responsibility? Was this considered in the settlement talks?

    I'm curious to hear what people here think about the source of it all. Does it matter if someone approaches you asking to lend them your car? Or if you decide to lend your car to someone else all by yourself? Is it always the responsibility of just one party, or both?

    Does it make a difference if the driver is inexperienced or not, or if he has sufficient means by himself to cover any damages if needed?
     
  9. TrackDriver

    TrackDriver Rookie

    Jan 29, 2013
    3
    Rubystone/Mark/Mr Mark Piper,

    You are of course entitled to your views, and I note that a number of them across many forums over a period of time do seem to consistently relate to Mark or Mark's endeavors. I'm not sure why.

    I note that your views appear to emanate from 3rd parties, and as you might expect as a result you are rather behind the curve. I would ordinarily have left this alone but as the content of your post could be damaging and are certainly misleading I feel obliged to correct;

    The "two planes"; The Robin was sold to pay legal costs. The Gemini (twin) was damaged in a landing accident two years ago and was sold as salvage.

    The bikes; Long gone. I know this, because I bought one. I could go on, but it's absolutely not fair or reasonable to try and establish Mark's financial position or otherwise on a public forum and as I've said elsewhere I don't have the time to spend on forums constantly rebutting accusations.

    Of course it goes without saying that in hindsight Mark should have stopped at the point of raising the shift adjustment problem, but if you were applying hindsight then the feature would never have been mooted in the first place.

    Regarding the fund, I will also be clear. It was not suggested by Mark, it is not handled by Mark, and in fact Mark doesn't know the current total or indeed who has contributed and how much - unless they've told him directly.

    It has instead been set up and is managed by a collection of journalists and publishers, names you will know, because, in their own words in a private email to me;

    "Mark's reputation is something that's beyond reproach, both as a driver and a person. ... Idiots will spout crap, but ultimately actions, conduct (and race results) over God-knows how many years speak louder than any forum [warriors] words."

    They go on to say how they will pull together, and show solidarity because ultimately Mark's problem is theirs too. Many of them have already written about it too.

    There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes, and I hope it works out. I have been open in my statements that Mr Piper should have been recompensed something, but whether Mark was in a position to personally provide that - and whether Mr Piper's mechanic should have shared the responsibility for the failure is a different discussion. In the end there is an order in favour of Mr Piper and it needs to be worked out, there are a great number of people in the industry who feel they should show that solidarity and help Mark out of a corner. Some big names too. That's all there is to this.

    Regards

    Stacy
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    Timothy Russell
    Brilliant post, Thankyou Stacy
     
  11. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,058
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    Paul Baber
    Totally agree.
     
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  13. rubystone

    rubystone Karting

    Mar 11, 2005
    237
    Earth
    For some reason my last post didn't appear. In essence all I said was that the full truth hadn't come out and MArk had been disingenuous in his posting for failing to admit the admission to AON...but regardless off that., on his comment regarding Octane, I cancelled my subscription, as hae my friends off of the back of his 'heading to the hills comments'....
     
  14. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    4,181
    I'm sure he'll be delighted given it is a magazine he continues to write for (see page 142 of the current issue). If everyone cancels their subscriptions then they obviously won't be able to pay him and that wouldn't seem to be of great help to anyone.

    Jonathan
     
  15. TrackDriver

    TrackDriver Rookie

    Jan 29, 2013
    3
    Perhaps the FerrariChat filter is more intelligent than we imagine.

    You see, you're at it again with this implication of skullduggery, and towards someone you have probably never met and certainly do not know too. Context is everything and the AON letter has been well explained by those minded to seek out all sides.

    You've spent a great deal of time on other forums performing what others have called "character assassination" on this person you don't know, then having discovered late that there is another discussion on the same subject elsewhere, you've kicked off with a series of inaccurate, misleading and harmful statements of "fact" which were anything but. I'm afraid it smacks of opportunism and a personal crusade.

    This would be disappointing behaviour if you were 16, but as a professional who isn't /that/ far away from a half century and wanders the same paddocks it's frankly staggering. I also note that your friendly source of "information" (the one with the long standing beef with Mark) is not truly inside the inner circle, so while I've no doubt gossip and out of context snippets may leak their way out, it is laughable to suggest there is some hidden truth you are aware of.

    I want to be clear; It is perfectly acceptable to discuss the impact of the judgement and the effect that may or may not have. It is perfectly acceptable to label Mark variously as; naive, stupid and given a good deal of this predicament stemmed from a propensity to avoid conflict, he's been cowardly too. I've said all of this to him. What he isn't though is dishonest, however much you and your circle consistently try to suggest otherwise on forums.

    Thankfully the support from within the industry has been almost total, because in the main those people who have spent many years/decades with Mark assign more weight to that experience than they do the result of a bad day in front of a hotshot lawyer and a beak who didn't know him from Adam, and who didn't know a syncromesh cone from a Cornetto.

    The support from owners/curators of car collections has been overt too, from private individuals, blue chip companies and manufacturers. This might stick in the craw with some but that says more about them than it does about Mark.

    I say again, I also have little truck with those who want to rake the muck through with either David Piper or Octane. It's a behaviour I just don't get. What matters is where we go now, and thankfully there are many people that have decided that whatever happened, Mark shouldn't have been left in the crosshairs.

    S.
     
  16. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,058
    London. UK.
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    Paul Baber
    Again, an excellent post.
     
  17. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    Timothy Russell
    Great post
     
  18. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Jun 1, 2008
    1,111
    London
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    Kim
    I was reading old articles on David Piper and came across a piece written for the Telegraph by Doug Nye over a decade ago in 2001.

    Prophetic words indeed.

    "Leasing out his cars for others to race "keeps the wheels turning" but is fraught, as almost anything that fails on the Ferraris costs a lot of money. "So I prefer drivers who are mechanically sympathetic, and there are a lot of capable guys who would love to race a prototype Ferrari without the cost of buying one. Fortunately, the Ferraris are inherently robust. The basic understanding is `you bend it, you mend it', although I take care of mechanical failures - unless the engine has been seriously over-revved - and of course I seek to provide a car that is absolutely safe."

    Full text A life of Ferraris and far flung races at Goodwood Revival - Telegraph
     
  19. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,279
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    Bubba
    You would have thought he carried the insurance, for the liability, and Loss Of Use is part of any accident claim, let's not savage Piper for that issue.

    Or, they could have put him in a rental! :D :D :D

    Sorry, serious situation....ahem.....
     
  20. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    NORMAL insurance (even my Collector Car umbrella) covers anyone I hand the keys to....would depend on how you worded the claim, on covering an engine in off road use.

    Interesting point....no idea on Piper's coverage of course, and it may be different in the Uk as far as Terms of Use. Everything is negotiable. You pay for what you need.
     
  21. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    Great post....:D

     
  22. 986986

    986986 Rookie
    BANNED

    Nov 8, 2007
    49
    Sydney Australia
    Full Name:
    Matt
    Reports from speed monkey if not seen...what is puzzling is Pipers absolute resolve to bankrupt Hales, had this moved from a civil case to a personal resolve to just bury an individual?

    As per speed monkey site, reproduced without prejudice:

    Remember the Mark Hales case? If not read about it here. Mark has just sent an email out to his supporters, one of whom has sent us a copy. It's enough to make anyone, journalist or otherwise, think first before driving anyone else's car without a contract.



    To everybody who has been kind enough to donate...
    Apologies again for this round robin email, and also to those kind people I may have missed last time.
    Thank you all so much for your generosity and support in this unpleasant matter. Your contributions allowed me to keep the fight going for a bit longer, and to survive while it was all going on. It’s amazing how these things completely take over your life and working productively is one of the first things that suffers.
    I use the past tense in the context of the fight, because on June 11th Piper purchased the last piece of his retribution and succeeded in making me bankrupt.
    Piper has now spent nearly £80,000 in his efforts to bankrupt me and has refused all offers to settle. A group headed by the CEO of Nick Mason’s businesses had organised some serious fund raising activities and Nick and others had kindly underwritten a minimum of £50,000. This was on the table, plus whatever surplus came from the fundraising, plus anything remaining in your fund. Piper refused the offer saying he would continue with the bankruptcy proceedings.
    I have the interview with the Official Receiver on Tuesday.
    I’ll let you know how it goes.
    Thanks again
    Mark
     
  23. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
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    Paul Baber
    I received this too........None of it makes sense.....If Mason can kindly donate 50K why not 80K ?.....As said, so much we dont know....Regardless, it appears senseless, cruel and uneccessary.
     
  24. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
    9,741
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    Marnix
    and now I think even less of mr. Piper.
     
  25. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    895
    First because it is not your money Paul and everyone should be grateful that some folks move their ass to help their friend, one cannot expect that they also foot the whole bill!
    But second, if you read properly post #95 because the claim is for 110k, out of which roughly 30 K for the engine repair and 80 K (the number referenced in the post you quote) for legal costs of procedure deemed the 80 grands that DP spent to pursue the case. So DP who has spent this money, rightly or wrongly, this is a matter of personnal taste, is refusing to settle for less than cost. Would you sell a car at 50 pc discount to cost?
     
  26. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
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    Paul Baber
    Bankruptcy is a spiteful act unless you have some hope of recovering your claim......In Mark's case Piper has no chance...... To use your anology of selling a car I would rather bank some money than give the car away...... I again concede that there is much we haven't been told but this latest situation achieves nothing positive.
     
  27. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
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    Dec 8, 2003
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    James
    Was Piper previously known/thought to be a vindictive person? Is this action "in character" or not so much......?



    (BTW: between this thread and the one on 0858, DP is takin' a lickin' around here.....;-)
     
  28. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,058
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    Grumpy, Gruff, Kind, Extremely knowledgable & thought of by many as a legend in his own lifetime regarding all matters vintage Ferrari........Vindictive ?......previously NEVER to my knowledge.
     

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