Daytona #14273 - Is there life after death?

Have the repairers given you an explanation or justification as to why they carried out the work as they did?

 

Chris,

This thread is full of advice and proposed courses of action, but I am missing your own point of view.

Of all of us, it is you who knows most about the background, as well as what transpired exactly.

How do YOU see the way forward?

Thanks,

Jack.

 

Do you have a written quote setting out the works to be undertaken?

 

Was this the only company you orginally asked to quote for the work?

 

Didn't Mike Osgood advise you on the competence of your chosen repaireres to carry out the necessary work? Is he able to remedy the incorrectness of the job? Surely something can be done with the body and chassis? Is it really only fit for scrap now?

 

Sorry GTO Spoons, but I’m still confused. Before you drop this matter can you please explain how on one hand you are saying that your 1st choice repairer returned you a chassis some 22mm out of true, then on the other you provide another posting wherein you state that you presented the shop you now don't like with a body frame / chassis in a perfectly straight and true state? This just doesn’t add up: if the chassis was repaired and you were happy, why would anyone else need to measure it? "Here's a prefect chassis, lads. Have at it." Did something arouse their curiosity, causing them to measure it for themselves? Perhaps I am missing something in your saga?

I also think, to quote the esteemed PSK (who is a skilled Alfa man, and what is a Daytona if not just a lovely, bigger Alfa?), any car, even one we sanctify like a Daytona, is just a collection of metals, rubber, glass etc, and anything can be fixed (or even recreated...), so to say your car is scrap now seems self-pitying and melodramatic. Of course it can be fixed. In fact, if you truly believe it's scrap I will take it off your hands for the going rate of scrap steel. Furthermore, having seen the work of the shop you keep trashing, I would be happy to have THEM complete the restoration. I would know, however, that I would need to pay them properly for their work...but that would be true whether I chose Mototechnique, or any of the other world class shops you're blessed with in the UK, be it Bob Smith, Crossthwaite and Gardiner, Bob Houghton, DK, or whomever.

Maybe this would not have all ended in tears if the late Mr. Lawrence had been more candid as to what a wrecked old shed he was selling you, Daytona or not. I've looked at your photos, and your car was seriously buggered-up. It seems like you had one shop try to fix the frame, they failed, so you got someone else involved but told them the frame was perfect....when you knew it wasn't....and therewith set up a conflict that need not have been.

I see a story here of a very disappointed man, and I do indeed feel for you, but I question the sequence of events you've provided because it simply does not add up.

 

Hi PSK, just spotted your posting and thought I'd toss in some thoughts. Whilst I apreciate and bow down to your superior knowledge on Alfas, they are of a monoque construction ............ relax it's OK to Butt weld an oval tube chassis limb provided it's correctly executed ( my choice would be to TIG weld but having said that Ferrari were happy with cheap crude MIG welded Butt welded joints and the cars are still here today. In my experience welding a re-inforcment plate mid way along a tube will introduce an isolated area of stiffness which could lead to problems ( however given the milage these classic cars attain these days I don't really see this as a physical problem more a style thing really and I cant see the average driver spotting the difference through the seat of his / her pants, Ferrari chassis are massivley over engineered and their power was massivley overstated, when you have the body work off a 166mm or maybe a 275 the standard of welding is laffable, but hey it works and thats why we love these unique cars. Hope this helps, cheers Mick.

 

Heck I just want to see the car finished. I also think we overstate the need for perfection when we have time on our hands. If instead this car was between race meetings it would be welded, sorted and practicing by now and be just as effective.

Cars are not space shuttles with marginal safety factors, especially Daytonas ...
Pete

 

I am helping a buddy restore a terminally rusted glass drysump 308GTB at the moment, a project which is utterly uneconomic by any measure. We've been MIG welding oval chassis tubes for days now! But we'll get it done and one day, the car's value will exceed the restoration cost. I went through a similar upside-down exercise with my basket-case 246GT 30 years ago and time solved the economic problem.

Daytonas will easily put on another 100K pounds value over the next 10 years. My advice to Chris would be to sit and wait (I'd be finding a lawyer to go after the repairer too but that's another topic entirely) then start again with the car and, above all, DO IT PROPERLY.

The oval tubes are available, people have chassis jigs, anything can be put right. In this part of the world I'd send the car to New Zealand, where there are wonderful craftsmen, and get the body and chassis back in perfect shape for around $100K.

 

I can't help thinking that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear in the first place, but for the repairing company implicated, given their excellent reputatation, which must have been hard earned over many years, to do such a botch job absolutely beggars belief. Are we being presented with all the facts?

 

Again I still just want the best outcome for the owner of this car here. And I'm still hoping that we can fix this car quickly so they can get on their driving holidays.

I'm starting to think that the internet is not the right place for this complex issue.
Pete

 

Dear “Gtospoons”, I’ve followed your project with great interest and whilst I have the greatest compassion for the situation that you find yourself in and whilst I am having great difficulty resolving some of your back tracking and conflicting statements, I think that it is time for you to move on, any enthusiast with half an ear to the ground knows that you have embarked on a £250,000-00 plus project I realise that you started this project as a tribute to dear old Chris but in order to complete a project of this magnitude you’ll need a fully equipped and staffed workshop, equally important are the necessary skills, contacts and knowledge which take a life time to obtain.
You’ll never get your money back , the project was ill starred and a looser from the start ( just look at that engine with those gaping holes ………, this project is not worth the effort, admit it you bought a breaker not a project.

 

Wow , what's this all about ??? I haven't seen any mention that the repairers final price differed from the original quotation ....... sorry, but this rambling disertation is un-related ......... and to quote the old adage " advice is only worth, what you pay for it" This modern Classic Ferrari market is a serious market place, for a good trade both sides should profit and I for one would be wary of free advice

 

GTO Spoons, I find it odd that while you would have "not have had the heart" to buy this project from a dying man (maybe admirable, maybe foolish), you would nonetheless engage in, and seem to enjoy, the sort of character assassination you've initiated, complete with girlie, coy remarks such as "I couldn't possibly comment" when someone asked you to confirm the name of the shop. You mix intensely emotional "reasoning" with an inconsistent tally of facts.

I only take you to task on this because you are messing around with the reputation of a business and the people employed there, a group in this case who have earned considerable respect for their craftsmanship and business practices over the years.

Now you quote the next specialist you've retained to advise you, but you will always find some other jealous-johnny to speak ill of another shop's work if you look low enough, and should wonder if they are perhaps motivated by their own desires on your checkbook as much as they are to be your new ally and best pal. There is a lot of potential upside for those who will agree to agree with you, but in the end you'll be the loser.

Which is your prerogative, but your use of this venue to go after someone with an inconsistent set of facts is disturbing. You still have failed to shine a light on questions asked earlier by others, such as your original agreement with the shop, what was really said, how much money you committed to spend, whether you said "Do it right and I will pay what it takes" or if you actually requested something more along the lines of "Please do the best you can for as little as possible, I am not made of money..." That's what your story sounds like to me.....champagne dreams on a Budweiser budget.

If you indeed made such a mistake and are out of your depth, that's fine....you will not be the last. But why the smear campaign?

 

I am pretty new to this FerrariChat thing and going by the number of posts from vinnie70 (1) and jjeffries (3) they are new also. Am I right? But my word they have entered the frey and community with gusto. I have not posted much but read a lot of threads and I have never really read anything quite so sharp (agressive, nasty) before.

I am under the impression this is forum for like minded enthusiasts to discuss cars, experiences, issues, etc. and gotspoons is certainly involved in all three. I have seen the shambles that has been returned to gtospoons and it really does have to be seen to be believed. It is just SO bad!

What might be really interesting is if we got a view from the shop who did the work. In the meantime we appear to have vinnie and jj to stand up for them.
KP.

 

Just to confirm, the independent specialist Chris employed to assess the car, found around 80 faults with the body work [ so i have been told ].

I have seen the car and to say the work is shoddy would be an understatement in my opinion, a friend of mine who also saw it said " It looked like it had been do by some one with no knowledge of Ferrari's at all"

I also know the independent specialist who assessed the work well, and a more honest guy you could not meet, He worked for Ferrari for 20 plus years and ended up being in charge of restorations there.

Nice 3rd post J.J.

 

Whilst not having any history or experience with the specialist in question with the state of GTOspoons' car, I can confirm that the independant specialist/expert consulted (Mike Osgood) does not fall in to the 'jealous Johnnie' category and whist appearing to defend one UK specialist JJ, you are in danger of questioning the integrity of another.

Although I have not met Mike personally, I have had some dealings with him, as Grant points out Mike worked at Ferrari for 20 odd years and whilst there he restored my Daytona. I contacted Mike when I bought my car and since then he has been very helpful to me in supplying details and photographs of a restoration he carried out over twenty years ago, all at no charge to me. As the car is still pretty much as it was on completion of the restoration he must be doing it out of goodwill as there isn't much chance of him restoring my car in the near future, so in my experience he is no 'jealous johnnie' looking to relieve anyone of their wallet.

David

 

If not to an expert, where do you go to have the faults identified?

None of us, except the OP, know all the facts; it was only a matter of time for the 'other side' to chime in, or send in their troops, as it appears. The tone has changed, and this could easily become a mud-slinging contest, to which there is no point.

No doubt a considerable amount of money has changed hands to get to the point where we are now, and a dispute exists: If there is no amicable way out of the mess, seek the help of the Court.

Take a deep breath.

Then start over again.

 

DaytonaKP, yes of course this Forum is for like minded enthusiast “ but do you not think that your posting #89 was responsible for initiating the vitriol displayed on these pages ????? do you not think your words were inflammatory given your one sided knowledge of the situation and do you not question why Mr Withers is posting this nonsense on three different chat rooms with varying degrees of response ( is this the Chat room equivalent of an affair ? ), it’s obvious from the conspirital nudge , nudge private messaging going on that a well conducted attack was well underway from the start, you really haven’t helped.

But to bring things back on track …………. All this current dialogue is off subject, whilst I am sure that Mr Osgood is a lovely fellow I question as to whether his judgment is fair, balanced and impartial and whether he has seen the often quoted Quotation and is aware as to it’s terms and conditions …………. Likewise, GTOspoons has constantly swerved the issue as to what aroused the repair shops need to scan / measure his “supplied straight and true” chassis, exactly what was the condition of the chassis when delivered? Exactly what was it which made your heart sink when you surveyed your purchase ?