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Daytona #14273 - Is there life after death?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by gtospoons, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
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    Nick.
    #126 Chaos, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
    methinks we have a ringer in our midst.
    tell me, are you something to do with the "dodgy restorer" perchance ?
     
  2. DaytonaKP

    DaytonaKP Karting

    Sep 6, 2007
    104
    West Sussex
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    KP

    Firstly to suggest there is any "conspirital nudge, nudge private messaging going on" is simply untrue.

    Secondly, I am not sure if I should feel flattered that you are suggesting I initiated all this vitriol. It really was not my intention, but to ask who was responsible for the work (since the work was under discussion) just seemed a pretty obvious thing to ask. No?
     
  3. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Oct 23, 2007
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    If the job had been done well in the first place, it would not have be on three web-sites "Vinnie" ? Funny how you know Chris's last name!
     
  4. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
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    Matthew
    This thread started out as an interesting rebuild story on a car that was in need of a lot of work. Now it is about an owner seeking redress for a car that has not been completed to the standard they expected and a restoration shop that believes that they fulfilled the terms of the agreement to carry out the work on the car (that last part is an assumption but this thread would be very odd indeed if it isn't).

    As has been said already this is a matter for lawyers to sort out, and no amount of commenting from either side (or friends of either party) is going to do the slightest thing in resolving the situation, probably the opposite in fact.
     
  5. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
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    Nick.
    i thought that too Grant, hence my ringer comment.
     
  6. matumorales

    matumorales Formula Junior

    Jun 8, 2011
    462
    Asunción, Paraguay
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    Daniel Morales
    Very well said! Even though this thread has taken an unexpected turn a while ago, I hope we recover it's essence. Nothing will ever change what happened, and even if both parties eventually decide on a settlement, our opinions are pointless.

    In order to avoid further damaging reputations and to get rid of the awful "vibe" that's been growing on the thread, let's try to summarize what's been said and leave those things alone:

    1) The culprit of the shoddy bodywork has been pointed out. We won't determine if he's guilty or not on this thread. But it should be advised to any forum member considering hiring that shop for a restoration to set straight terms and conditions from the beginning and, get estimates from other similarly qualified shops before deciding where to restore your pride and joy

    2) gtospoon doesn't seem like a malicious guy... this thread started beautifully as a restoration of a car he cherished a lot. The outcome wasn't what he expected, but I don't believe that he went into all of this just in order to damage someone else's reputation! Let's keep this real, shall we? It's not like he's posting hateful things about someone.

    3) Many of us believe that every F-car is worth saving. To many of us, it's not about "financial sense" at all... it's about the romance of restoring and saving something precious. I do realize that a lot of people have other principles regarding their F-car, and in consequence, they treat their cars with a lot more objectivity than many of us do; but those people should respect other people's opinions, feelings and principles. We are entitled to pursue our dreams, no matter how odd those might seem to others (as long as it doesn't damage someone else in the process, of course). Those people, should just politely step aside and not post on these type of threads. It's like my grandma used to say: "if you can't say anything nice, just don't say nothing at all".

    I hope Chris, and all of us, can leave these few last entries in the past and concentrate on the one important thing here: the Daytona.

    I truly hope this car has a chance to cruise around in the near future and fulfill it's main purpose: pure and genuine enjoyment by it's owner.

    Peace.
     
  7. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    It is a shame to hand over New Old Stock sheet metal, and have a poor result.
    That part will be hard and expensive to rectify, one would think....
     
  8. gtospoons

    gtospoons Karting

    Jun 16, 2011
    105
    Suffolk, UK
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    Chris Withers
    #133 gtospoons, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Gentlemen, gentlemen! I hear anger, sniping, vilification: This was certainly not what I had intended at the beginning of this thread. IanB and Jack are right, there has been a change in tone over the last few days and whilst anyone, YES anyone, would be extremely upset with the work done on my car, we are all human beings and have been trained to demonstrate manners and consideration for others and their point of view, even if it differs from ours. Since the beginning of this thread I have tried not to get too emotional, (perhaps not always successfully) however it is particularly galling to hear one or two individuals attempting (badly) to criticise a true and elderly gentleman with 250, 275, 365, 246 and Daytona (among others) restoration history whilst in Ferrari employment and beyond. I doubt very much if those individuals have anything like his experience and ability. I am also dismayed at their inability to read simple text without trying to twist and turn it into something that it is not. This is the stuff of politicians and I am neither impressed nor fazed by it. Indeed such tactics smack of desperation and make the perpetrators look like the weak cowards they are.

    For what it is worth, I have come to terms with the disaster that is my car and resigned myself to giving the current unuseable body and chassis to either Ferrari or one other true Specialist for dismantling. All parts will be examined for possible reuse and then a new body and chassis unit will be constructed which I will then paint myself. I will also rebuild and refurbish all running gear, trim etc., and hopefully restore the car to standards acceptable to me, which are, I believe, reasonable without demanding perfection. The whole saga will be documented here and maybe on other forums.

    The only problem I have is that having spent a lot of money on new panels and paid my repairer up front the money that he quoted for UNDER A FIXED PRICE AGREEMENT DATED 27 Feb 2009 (NB. JJ, Vinnie), I have run out of funds so it is going to take me some time to organise funds for the rebuild. If you will grant me some time, I will do my utmost to generate said funds and then start posting more positive news and pictures of the car progressing towards being a correct Ferrari 365 GTB/4 (Daytona) once more.

    Finally, I hope this thread, notwithstanding the aforementioned vituperation, is a salutary lesson to us all: Get a detailed quote, thrash out the details, thrash out the specifications and standards, who sets the standards, records, records and more records, payment, terms and conditions, retainers just in case, contingencies, delivery dates, penalty clauses AND don’t trust anyone! Then, if your repairer still sounds like a cowboy, looks like a cowboy and rides like a cowboy, he probably is a cowboy. Caveat Emptor!

    Can’t name you all, but thank you to so many… you know who you are…

    Here’s some pictures of the repaired sump and clutch cable bracket to get us going…..
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  9. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Absolutely correct.

    As others have posted its only metal.

    It can be salvaged and rewelded, or replaced with new as needed...Ferrari does have a habit of overusing cast brackets, don't they!??

    It does take the wind from your sails, the setbacks.

    There was an old racer resto retold in Cavallino, IIRC and the car had bankrupted him three times. He was driving it, in the end!
     
  10. simon klein

    simon klein F1 World Champ
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    Feb 25, 2009
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    I don't think vinnie has any credibility here.....if he can't put anything in his profile,then I don't have any time for such stuff.
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    I wondering if this thread should be locked by the moderators and lets let the lawyers sort this out?

    Pete
     
  12. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
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    Nick.
    pete, i dont see why.
    this is a place to exchange information, help others etc etc.
    outing to$$ers like those who have destroyed this daytona is to me certainly helpful to anyone else who may have considered using them

    people worry about legalities, but in reality any opinions are expressed are simply those of the whoever has posted them (so the forum owners/moderators are in no danger of being sued) oh and the car, the owner and the company all seem to be in the UK, and we Brits dont suffer the same ridiculous sue sue sue culture that pervades other parts of the globe.
     
  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    #138 PSk, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
    We have to remember though that we are only getting one side of the story, and as this is current with lawyers the other side is not allowed to say anything. Is that fair?

    If there wasn't multiple repairers involved then maybe it wouldn't be so unfair, but there was and we don't know who did what and what the arrangements were, budgets, etc. Plus, and please note I sympathise completely with the owner, there are contradictions or inaccuracies in the story. For example: We are told that the main chassis tube was cut and bent straight and then welded instead of being heated and straightened, and then we are also told that the wrong sort of tube was used in making the chassis straight. Can't be both, was it straightened or was it cut off and replaced?
    Pete
     
  14. gtospoons

    gtospoons Karting

    Jun 16, 2011
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    Chris Withers
    #139 gtospoons, Sep 12, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
    Pete,
    It is quite simple:
    I did not say the tubes were bent straight. If you re-read the relevant post #68, you will see that replacement tubes have to be bent to deviate slightly around various cross members and braces and this is where they should be warmed and bent during installation.
    So:
    1. Old oval tubes were completely replaced with new ones of incorrect profile.
    2. Instead of being warmed and bent, they have been cut, bent and then butt welded back together.
    You can see it in the photos.
    Chris
     
  15. matumorales

    matumorales Formula Junior

    Jun 8, 2011
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    Daniel Morales
    Hey there gtospoon! Any updates on this story? How are you doing these days? :)
     
  16. gtospoons

    gtospoons Karting

    Jun 16, 2011
    105
    Suffolk, UK
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    Chris Withers
    Well, now part two of this story can begin……..

    I have taken the badly restored (my opinion) body and chassis unit to Alwin Hietbrink in Holland. He will carefully dismantle the bodywork and chassis and sympathetically repair and replace parts as required in order to return it to a correct Daytona body/chassis unit. I have seen Alwin’s work and his attention to detail and quality of workmanship is unsurpassed. Clearly this will take some time but I do hope to post some pictures showing progress, from time to time.

    Thanks for your patience,
    Onwards and upwards………
    Chris
     
  17. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    you have made a wise decision. congrats and good luck.
     
  18. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    It's in good hands there.

    Best,

    Jack.
     
  19. DaytonaKP

    DaytonaKP Karting

    Sep 6, 2007
    104
    West Sussex
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    KP
    Chris,
    Excellent to see that you are progressing.
    I very much look forward to seeing how the work goes. And also to see you out and about in a very shiny and straight (!) Daytona in the not TOO distant future.
    All the best.
    KP.
     
  20. evoderby

    evoderby Rookie

    Nov 10, 2006
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    Amsterdam
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    Harald
    Nice! I'm sure Alwin will do a killer job....
     
  21. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    5,971
    Central NJ
    I wish you the best of luck going forward.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  22. gtospoons

    gtospoons Karting

    Jun 16, 2011
    105
    Suffolk, UK
    Full Name:
    Chris Withers
    Progress has been slow but we now have a complete chassis (sorry no pics at the moment) and Alwin has turned his attention to the previously restored bodywork. Most of this is scrap so we need new panels. Does anyone know where there is any NOS bodywork for a Daytona Coupe? I'm looking for any and all panels, front and rear clips, door skins etc., etc., but they must be NOS not reproduction, please.
    Thanks for your help,
    Chris
     
  23. jnk

    jnk Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2010
    304
    Try Ted Rutlands. He had some NOS panels a few months ago.
     
  24. swift53

    swift53 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 17, 2007
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    Alberto
    Daytona panels must be in short supply, more so when it comes to a complete car as you require.

    One door or a trunk lid will not solve your inventory, and the few for sale are all beat up.

    Roofs, ought be available from Sheehan, as I believe he did quite a few chop tops.

    Possibly one of the various body makers in Italy might be a better solution, and potentially

    a more logical approach, might be a bespoke 100% body, as one of them must have a

    body buck, instead of making a pastiche of panels.

    A friend in the Dino community, had a complete body remade with great results.

    Regards, Alberto
     

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