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Daytona Koni Details

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by murphyrg1, Nov 16, 2021.

  1. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    Rory Murphy
    The West coast authorized Koni rebuilder, Performance Shocks, says that their color match of the Koni red used in the period might be a little too orange. Trying to decide if we should take a chance on it or have our painter have a go at matching to the color on the old shock (which might be a bit off now, too). Anyone have any experience with this? Also, I'm not sure that I have ever seen a winged Koni decal on any original Daytona or period picture - did the factory installed shocks have a decal? And if so, about where was it located?

    Thanks
     
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  3. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    How confident are you that the suspension has never been touched in the past? For example, do the coils still have the color-codes on them?

    Unless the suspension is untouched, matching to what is there may not be what you want.

    That said, I agree that "before" photos of old Koni shocks often look a little more "reddish" than the "after" photos.

    I've been looking for concrete evidence that my car (1972) should have wings, and not triangles, for over 2 years now, and not had any luck, so Ill be watching this thread with interest... :)
     
  4. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Rory Murphy
    There's no guarantee that our suspension hasn't been messed with, but the scruffy springs still have traces of the white/blue and white/yellow ID marks on them. You would think that your '72 would have the wing decal given that decal suppliers like Kilimanjaro claim that the switch to the triangle was '74, but I certainly don't know anything beyond that.
     
  5. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Hi Rory,

    Yes, I'm aware of the Kilimanjaro claim, but like you, don't seem to have any additional evidence to back that up.

    I've been trying hard to find even *one* picture of a late car that seemed likely to be original with the wings, but have had no luck.

    Nice that you still have the color marks on the springs. My car might have them under a general black overspray that someone did to the suspension, but I have not yet tried to pull the coils to see what I might be able to uncover.

    Cheers,
    Alex
     
  6. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    BTW, Rory,

    Are the marks on the springs "white on one coil, and other color on another coil" (see pic that I posted in the other thread about daytona shocks), or are then "wide white on one coil, with a strip of other color on the same coil" (see video posted in the fastener finishes thread)?

    Been wondering for a while whether the two types of markings are somehow tied to vintage...
     
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  8. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    Rory Murphy
    Alex,
    I've seen paint marks adjacent to each other on the same coil on later cars, but both our front and rears had them on different coils.
    Rory
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  9. colombo2cam

    colombo2cam Formula Junior

    Jan 31, 2019
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    Ted
  10. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Ted,

    You are my hero...:)

    Anything "73" would be well past my car, so wings it is.

    Once again, these "befores" do look a little more reddish than the modern Koni color that one normally sees...

    Thanks!
     
  11. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Rory Murphy
    Thanks, Ted. I just used your photo to verify that the color used by the rebuilder is too orange. I will have him return the shocks unpainted and try to find a better color match to use. Doing a quick search online indicates that Koni shock color from the '60's is of some interest in the Shelby community; maybe someone there has figured this out.
     
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  13. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    You know, I've been looking a some of the "Koni Classic" shocks, and it sure looks to me like Koni has a sanctioned paint formula that is pretty close to the right "reddish" color:

    https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Products/Cars/List/?t=KoniPartSearch&q=1972&m=282&mk=15&mt=1

    As Performance Shock is a Koni-sanctioned rebuilder, I would think they could get access to that paint; and indeed, I plan to ask them... :)
     
  14. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Rory Murphy
    Alex,
    You would think so, but they told me that Koni won't give them the formula. And they know that what they are using is too orange, but apparently, most people don't care. In my most recent talk with them, they said that the photo on the rebuilding page of their website is a pretty good representation of what you would get with their color match. Too orange for me, may work for you.
     
  15. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Alas, I think I have to agree that the orange is not right.

    In fact, I starting to wonder whether the color really ought to be more like a dull red.

    I've gotten a hold of a 1971 Koni that sure looks like it might be original, and the color matches the impression given by this pic (from an old 911):
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    And when I look at that old pic from Steve Hill, the color there does not look massively inconsistent with the above:
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    While the color is a little brighter, that could well be just because of the use of a flash in Steve's pic.

    Now, of course, it is possible that Koni used more than one paint color in that period, but I was really surprised when I got those 1971 shocks, because the pics on eBay gave an impression of a color that was very different...
     
  16. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Rory Murphy
    Maybe they did have more than one shade in this period. This is from a '73 911 and it definitely looks more orange than what you have shown and what I have in mind.


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  17. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    The Porsche guys think that the color of those dull-red shocks is something close to RAL3013 or RAL3016, and that matches up with my RAL deck and the 71 shock that I have.

    From your first couple of posts to this thread, it sounds like you think you have a good color sample to go by.

    If you have a RAL deck, it would be interesting to hear what you think the closest RAL color is.

    I'm hoping that once I get my shocks off my car, I'll be able to find something under the paint that is on them now....
     
  18. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    Rory Murphy
    I don't have a RAL deck, but just looking at their reds on a computer (not ideal, I know), I would say that our '73 Porsche strut is much more orange than those two colors - maybe something like RAL3026.
     
  19. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    So on the topic of computer monitors not being an ideal way to judge colors...

    I was looking through my downloads of various JPEGs and found that Ted's excellent pictures of a set of original shocks from a 1973 looked a little different when I opened them in Photoshop (rather then viewing them on the website). I'm not sure if it will come through, but below is a screen-shot that has the raw JPEG file compared to a screen-capture of the website rendering:
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    The difference is not massive, but it is tangible, and to my eyes, it made the shocks look a lot more like that original (admittedly, non-Ferrari) 1971 shock that I found.

    As an experiment, I took a photo of my 1971 shock (lower right, in composite below), and put it next to the raw JPEGs of various pics of thought-to-be-original Konis from that era, and to me, it seems plausible that the "911 Koni" color might be right:
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    Note, that it is not just the browser-rendering that is potentially problematic, but also variations in lighting conditions. I also got ahold of a "looks to be original" GTC/4 shock, and a clearly "rebuilt a very long time ago" Dino shock (that looked to me to be the orange that many folks tend to favor), and if you compare these shocks under various lighting conditions, one finds that the perceived colors of the shocks shift noticeably, as do the perceived colors of the RAL reference samples:
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    Notice how in direct sun, the Dino's orange color does go a bit reddish, compared to the other lighting conditions; again, I hope the differences come through on other people's computers. In direct sun, RAL 3024 seemed better to me than Rory's guess (from the computer screen) of RAL 3026. But...

    ...RAL 3024 is quite off under the other lighting conditions. And overall, RAL 2002 seems to do better across all the lighting situations. Interestingly, there is a claim on one of the Porsche sites that RAL 2002 is what Koni said was the "Koni color" (ambiguous vintage).

    As for that GTC/4 shock, it sure gives the impression of a faded/worn version of the same paint that is on the non-Ferrari 1971 shock, and RAL 3013 seems better than RAL 3016 when one considers all the various lighting conditions.

    I placed RAL 2008 and RAL 2004 in the pics, because I have seen them listed as equivalents to the various "Chevy" and "tractor" orange shades that one can get easily (and are often offered as matches to "Koni orange"). RAL 2008 is really off under all conditions. RAL 2004 is better, but if you actually look at the samples directly (rather than in pictures), RAL 2002 is a better match; though RAL 2002 does seem too red under indoor lighting.

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  20. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    Rory Murphy
    Wow. I'm going to hire you to do any research projects that come up on this car.

    Thanks to your work, I'm now suspicious of making any decision based on just images. I agree with all of your observations and at this point, my inclination would be to go with RAL 2002. Other than seeming to become too vibrant when using a flash, it looks to give a close approximation in natural light (at least on my monitor).

    Great work - Thanks for sharing it.
     
  21. garymon

    garymon Rookie

    Sep 27, 2021
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    Gary A. Monetti
    I don't know if this will help, but I have a '72 C4 that needed a couple of the rear shocks rebuilt.
    Miller Motorcars took care of this for me before my car came down to Florida.
    Here is what Koni sent back to have installed on my car.

    Best,
    Gary



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  22. murphyrg1

    murphyrg1 Karting

    Oct 10, 2012
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    San Luis Obispo, CA
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    Rory Murphy
    Although I'm getting cautious about passing judgement on pictures of these shocks, I think your experience is consistent with the result I would get if I used the West Coast Koni authorized rebuilder. They would normally default to the later, more orange Koni color. For some reason, Koni isn't making it easy to replicate the earlier, redder version of their paint.

    Thanks for the input.
    Rory
     
  23. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran

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  24. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Late production, +/-20K miles and likely/presumably never repainted.
    I had them (all four) overhauled/rebuilt several years ago, but since the car still wears over 90% of “factory” finishes inside, outside and underneath, I specifically instructed/requested that they wouldn’t get stripped, refinished or even externally cleaned during the service process.
    I cleaned them myself and took some protective measures prior to sending them for service.
    I’m also fairly convinced there might’ve been at least two, maybe even three different colors used throughout Daytona production.

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  25. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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  26. Bob Zambelli

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  27. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Compliment is appreciated.

    Before going with 2002, you definitely should do a test-shot (on a pipe of similar size) and see what you think.. The color only really gives the impression of being "orange" under certain lighting conditions, and most folks would say that it is a "red"; I could easily imagine a judge taking off a point if they expected "orange".

    Sadly, 3016 (the color that I personally am feeling is correct) is totally not "orange" in any way, and so, if I decide to go with that color, it is likely "points off" and lower value when my heirs sell the car some day... :)

    Not sure what I will ultimately decide to do.
     
  28. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    As opposed to Ferrari guys are not ocd? :)

    Kidding aside, I'm not sure that one can count on all shocks of the same era using the same color. If they might be different colors, then the findings for a Shelby may not be relevant (which is why I was initially inclined to discount the color of that 197 shock that I have).
     

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