Daytona Rebuild

I have heard the "panels left outside in the rain" and "inside started life with a coat of rust" criticism of Scaglietti many times and I believe its unfair. This type of rust (termed "alpha oxidation") is of little impact on the long term life of the material (I'm a metallurgist). Its the places where moisture is trapped against metal where you'll get flaky "beta oxidation", which is the issue. This rust will happen irrespective of the starting condition of the steel. e.g Porsche's of the same period rot for the same reasons. These moisture traps are poor design or the result of poor assembly methods, or wax/tar/oil underseal which forms a membrane that traps moisture wherever it loses bonding to the metal. My ex-UK Daytona was Ziebarted from new, the holes drilled in the chrome-moly steel tubes are where the rust starts 30 years later! Remove every trace of underseal and paint with POR-15 (www.por15.com), this is the only coating I've found that works and can be oversprayed with satin black for the correct appearance.

 

Ian, thanks for bringing some good "tech" to this thread. Those old Porsches (356s) had the underseal sprayed directly onto the sheet metal without paint plus, as the stuff aged it would become brittle, crack and form a trap for water. No wonder those pans rotted out. So what is the best method for treating underbody sheetmetal? 3M Body Schutz?

 

Tim,

Thank you for your continual posts. this is a thread i will continue to watch w/ real interest. I must say that my interest in a Daytona purchase is getting a little bit cool as I worry about what lies beneath as a result of your project.

I am worried that many/most daytonas will need similar love in order to be well owned and enjoyed. A clear case of the more you look...the more you find! Did you have any suspicions that the car had so many issues to contend with?

The good news is that you have probably owned the car long enough that you will be able to spend the money on the restoration w/o fear of spending bad dollars as these cars are getting more and more precious.

It will be a spectacular car when complete and w/ all the structural issues attended to, it may be one the very best. good luck and keep the posts coming.

Best,

Peter

 

Tim, I applaud your commitment and strength. I would be a blubbering wreck by now, if I'd survived this far! Very few restorations get down to this level, take heart in knowing that you will have an as-new structure when its finished, good for another 35 years! JCR, I don't think there is a simple answer for "whats the best method". If you have a bare frame (like Tim) you can bead-blast everything, then etch prime then spray with 2-pack, or powder coat and bake. On a running car, its a matter of scraping off the old underseal and applying a good, strong finish, after careful attention to preparation. I found POR15 for my boat and had great results, so I've just treated my Daytona chassis with it. I sprayed fish oil into the inaccessible places though as this slows down the rot you can't see. The key point is regular inspections. Spend 15 minutes underneath an older car with a screwdriver and you'll find rust somewhere. Underseal conceals the progress of rust and people leave it until its too late, this alone is reason to remove it.

 

Peter, Tim's car is an exceptional case, I've never seen a Daytona get to this state. We don't know its history, eg. it could have been parked outside in a coastal town under continual salt exposure. Daytona's were built with care using quality materials and generally hold up well with reasonable maintenance. They are also immensly strong and over-engineered like no Ferrari before or after. (I'm biased here!) Just take the usual precautions when buying (e.g. get the car inspected by a Ferrari expert) and speak to previous owners if you can.

 

thank you for the explanation. the daytona is really the car i hope to acquire next ...but this thread does make the purchase a bit daunting you must admit!

as i mentioned, she will be lovely when done!!!

thank you for addressing my concern.

pcb

 

Hi Tim
Thanks for the photos. I can sympathise because I have been there.
You asked about surface treatments etc. There is a company in the Midlands (uk) that dip cars to strip them and can then apply various coatings, it may be worth checking them out, their web address is www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk.
I have not used them personally but I have heard good reports.
As a bit of encouragement I have included a couple of shots of my car, not a Daytona I'm afraid but still my pride and joy after 26 years of ownership
Good Luckl
Dave
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

With the primers available in the 1960's, a little rust on surface also made painting much easier. I think they may have left the panels outside on purpose to achieve this.

 

Tim, I applaud your decision not to chop your car, because of the historical significance of Daytona's. I disagree with the opinion about being built completely differently though, as "factory" spyders started life as complete coupe bodies, delivered to Pininfarina who converted them. The chassis is extensively reinforced, but it starts from the same structure. Scuttle-shake is noticable and the hood mechanism is a complete pain, but the noise is wonderful! I would be careful about dip stripping. It is very hard to remove all traces of the stripping chemical and I have seen examples where rust reappeared and surface contamination came through the paint. Sand blasting is much safer. My car was originally red also but is now Blue. I love the fact that nobody looks twice at me at the lights and medium metallics suit the period shapes so well. See how good Dave's 246 looks in Grigio. I also recommend you join the registry, www.daytonaregistry.com, its an extremely valuable network of advice and conversations with enthusiasts. Ian

 

Be wary of warping with hot dip galvinising..

Best of luck

 

Tim,

Will any of the original sheetmetal go back on? That is an amazing amount of corrosion on what appeared to be a shiny car at the start of the project.

Thank you for sharing.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Hi Ian, Many thanks for your expert opinion, Question ...... surely if there is corrossion present all be it Alpha then we have a situation which can turn to Beta ???? is it not better to clean and key the metal and paint it with epoxy / quality underseal ???. or are you saying that the moisture will penetrate any paint / protection applied? I have heard that ship builders deliberately let metal structures rust in order to provide a key for subsequent painting, any one know if this is true and what about sacrificial anodes ?? I believe these are employed on boats ships and our old London route master buses. how much effect does electrical activity have ?Any ideas ? Cheers and kindest regards Kev.

 

Question guys.

I'v read that the Daytona is an amazing high speed GT and solid to drive all around. How does it accomplish that feat with such a weak looking chasis? I would imagine there is plenty of chasis flex on uneven surfaces.

 

There are many things you can say about a Daytona chassis, but weak would not be one of them. The cars are in fact fairly stiff and the frame is extremely strong.

Remember, this is not a uni-body constructed car. The relatively small square framework you see is just to provide a simple support structure for the outer body. The large oval section main tubes that form the structural foundation for the cars frame are heavily triangulated and reinforced. The problem with the Daytona frame is not strength, its weight. If anything the Daytonas frame is overbuilt like pretty much everything on these cars. They are very strong but also heavy.

Enzo was no Colin Chapman. Nobody ever accused Ferrari of building flimsy machinery that sacrificed stength in the name of reduced weight. Ferrari built very strong, heavy and relatively crude chassis. The Daytona follows this tradition to the T.




Terry

 

this is an amazing thread. i wish the local guys had this kind of stuff going on, i would love to volunteer my aircraft sheetmetal skills.

speaking of classic aircraft, many older aircraft had hot linseed oil pumped through the tubes of the airframe to prevent corrosion from forming from the inside out. seems meatl fatigue is more of an issue with old airframes, whereas car are not help to such strict standards for obvious reasons.

 

Kev,

Rust is a simple chemical reaction (Fe+O2 = FeO). The presence of surface rust doesn't necessarily accelerate Beta rust and gives some protection, because a layer of FeO is inert compared to Fe alone.

Rust occurs at a microscopic level, water is a catalyst and if the smallest crack in a surface coating happens (when a chassis flexes) and the location is wet, the beta corrosion starts. Galvanising works better because it bonds Zinc to the steel at a molecular level and they flex together.

Zinc anodes attract oxygen molecules but only work if there is an electrical connection (e.g submerged in water). Electrical current accelerates any reaction but I don't believe has much bearing on a car chassis.

The key point is "keep it dry"! Aircraft frames need internal protection because of condensation when changing altitude, a car should't need this, just regular and thorough inspections.

Daytona chassis are not only strong, they're made from chrome-moly steel, the best possible steel with high corrosion resistance. You'll normally see bubbles in the panels long before the frame is perforated. Bad repairers patch up the skin without attending to the underlying problem and the end result is what Tim is dealing with now. Ian

 

Hi Ian, many thanks for the info which is most interesting and will be of help to all who are involved in restoration, Cheers and kindest regards Kev.

 

Tim,

Great job, saving one for another generation of Tifosi....I'll follow your progress with great anticipation.

Argento