Daytona restoration.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by kmartin, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    "Miles": another word which can also mean many things to many people...

    We used to call True "barn find" cars, as such, when they were ONE owner cars, 90% FIRST paint, with :"bullet proof" paperwork histories which stood up to thorough mileage assertions....

    Short of this, it requires a more subjective, experienced eye, in order to evaluate what "true" mileage likely is...
    As an example: in the late 1990s, i was sent to Monterey to evaluate a 6500 mile Spyder....
    It LOOKED fabulous-at ten feet....
    The paint was Flawless-you could: "stick your arm into the color up to your elbows"-it was sooo smooth and free of ANY surface imperfections.
    The belt line semi circle "detent/crease" in the doors lined up perfectly-ON BOTH SIDES(this is not "correct": the cars that have NOT been "done" will ALWAYS be a tad off on the passenger side-the "jigs" were off... just a TAD,.
    So, that's always a dead give away that the doors have been re-skinned.
    Panel fit was "too good", the interior was TOO good...why would a 6500 mile 2-3 owner car require such extensive/expensive expenditures?
    The engine AND trans-axle had "just been done"(trans-axle diatribe for another day)-again: at 6500 miles...why?

    Spyders, for the most part, lived sequestered lives in garages and carriage houses...or, they were ridden hard, and put away wet-the histories for the majority of the 121 cars is pretty well known due to their popularity rise immediately following the end of the 12 cyl. USA deliveries in 1973/4 time frame-to say nothing of the US appetite for open cars....with this in mind, the paperwork supporting the mileage was pretty air tight...

    The crux of the Apostrophe: tipo 251 engines make a quite unique noise when hot-AT IDLE-if a stable idle-with fans cycling,which ONLY happens under two scenarios in MY experience.
    The first is from miles-plain and simple: seen it almost exclusively after 45,000 MILES, almost always after 55,000 miles(more of these than people want to admit).
    Or, from a massive overheat episode-one severe enough to warrant a Brinnel test of the cylinder heads integrity(10mm ball-50/52 minimum), below this figure/result-and I've seen them in the 20s-and you are likely going to just drop the seats after a few full temp episodes....
    If hardness has not been lost from the heat, the oils of the era break down fast at 230-240 and above...cams, rings lose tension, etc.
    But, specific to THESE 251s is that: the front cam bearing journals are(and there is a PRECISE end float number due to the bevel gear drives) spec.
    When cams are pulled out, one can see how the steel shoulders of the cam's front journals has "machined" away part of the heads-this is ALSO evident during valve jobs at 25-30,000-NO BIG DEAL-so long as its NOT to SEVERE-as when it IS too severe: the cams start to bounce back and forth in the head and make a fairly distinctive "knock" at idle, which is MUCH slower than crank speed, but can be "heavy" like a rod, and is not often mistaken as such....simply since its not heavy enough and it comes and goes due to the minimal loads at idle. Carb tuning also comes into play....

    The moral of the story: my associate with me(a Dlr shop foreman for 25 years or more), turned to me as soon as WE heard this noise, looked at the dossier, and walked away-with the comment; if that thing has 6500 miles on it : I'll eat it".....This, a car with near "bullet proof" supporting don't get too entrenched in the miles thing....just some free advice

    As stated earlier: these are 50 year old cars, now worth 1-2 ORDERS of magnitude MORE than what you could by them for-all day long-when they were just "used cars", which is what they really are....
    If you remember this attitude, and approach it as a machine which can be: done to a SPECIFICATION, or TO A PRICE POINT, you will be much better off in the long term. But you have to be honest with yourself about what you REALLY want to do, and if you are willing to "do what it takes" for you to complete the mission..

    Otherwise, you will be in for a long, and inevitably unpleasant experience..
    My final comment regarding costs involved, and the commitments that money entails in the equation, is somewhat unpleasant:
    these cars were always for RICH people-not wealthy people-but RICH people.
    Today: they are, I'm being blunt here, are for RICHER people...
    as in my experience: Ferraris are quite intolerant of shortages of skilled personnel and money-lots and lots of it,
    just like fuel......
    Just like boats
    Just like planes

    "But the Emperor, he's NOT wearing ANY clothes!"

    In other words-and simply put: I'm not making ANY social commentary one way-or the other-merely a condition of fact. I am inclined to feel qualified as I've seen/been at this since LMs were 10K and GTOs were 9500 and TRS were 12K
    These were obsolete, used up, beat up, old racing cars....forget street cars for a moment....
    AND for PROPER reference: most 3/4 middle class suburban bedroom houses were 14-26,000.
    There was a day I remember CLEARLY: that you could have bought TWO LMs for the same amount as the new Daytona Spyder in the showroom-perspective is helpful, is all I'm trying to say here....
    And, the FINAL perspective: street cars were ONLY made/tolerated in order to make money to go racing in Formula !, a position Ferrari maintains to this day
  2. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2004
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
  3. enio45

    enio45 Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 16, 2004
    Gilbert, AZ
    Full Name:
    you have to be clear what you want to do relative to a restoration

    bare metal body and paint is a good start - but what about all other items on the car....

    chrome work, everything including window frames, correct plating on the parts, nuts and bolts,

    every component taken apart and restored? Complete engine rebuild?

    rest of the drive train, take it all apart or clean it up, new bearing and seals?

    interior work?? how much, all including the dash and restoration of the dash gauges and coverings

    exhaust system, new one, new one coated with ceracoat?

    tires, painted rims or restored weatherstrips, what about new glass?

    these are all the items for consideration before you settle in on a $$

    assume it is a running driving car?

    i had a client drop off a GTC - for a complete restoration - not running and some parts taken off

    end result - 75K of missing stuff - and hard stuff to find or we had to make, trim parts the hardest to find, everything required disassembly for inspection, correction and restoration.

    there is a lot to think about when you say "restoration" .....
    turbo-joe and TTR like this.
  4. jnk

    jnk Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2010
    If I may ask after you did all the work on the GTC what was the end cost including everything .
  5. enio45

    enio45 Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 16, 2004
    Gilbert, AZ
    Full Name:
    we are not done, but 350 - 375 will conclude it.....
  6. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma

    you are an "old timer"-ergo you "get it," as there is no substitute for "doing it",
    otherwise, you are NOT "doing it"..., THAT picture of a Daytona, is the reference from which I call the oft used term: restoration!

    It sure looks like a real "take down" to my way of thinking...can't speak for the mechanical stuff tough-I'm old: my X-ray vision hasn't worked in decades....
    of2worlds and readplays like this.
  7. ncipps

    ncipps Karting

    Jan 24, 2005
    Can i ask why some say to stay away from white post restorations?? Why is this?? They were one of the first in restoring automobiles and have completed some beautiful cars for people all over the world.
  8. Kenneth Gauthier

    Sep 26, 2019
    Full Name:
    Kenneth Gauthier
    Cant answer your question. Same here. But the car really beautiful!
  9. Kenneth Gauthier

    Sep 26, 2019
    Full Name:
    Kenneth Gauthier
    Buying a used Ferrari is just like buying any other vehicle (well, at the most general level). Proper care and maintenance, how it was cared for by prior owners are going to be a huge factor in a used purchase turning into a lemon or not. A well-cared-for Ferrari will be more reliable than a trashed and thrashed Honda Civic. Also hard to find good quality parts on website, who can provide it for us.
    Also depends what Ferrari you look at.
  10. GBTR6

    GBTR6 Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2011
    Titletown, USA
    Full Name:
    Perry Rondou
    Here in Wisconsin, Motion Products is first rate. Not sure if they specialize in Daytonas, but know they do awesome work.

    375+ likes this.

Share This Page