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Daytona Story

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Tspringer, Apr 21, 2004.

  1. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    This story is a bit embarrasing.... but interesting I think.

    I am having a few things done to my Daytona, including having the carb tops and velocity stacks installed. I am so short of time and focusing on getting my 911S hotrod onto the track so I decided to have someone else do the work.

    I took the car to Terry Girone at Old World Motors here in Atlanta. Terry has over 30 years experience on these cars and was a senior tech at FAF back in the day. He also rebuilt the engine in my car about 15 years ago. It was really great getting to finally talk to him in detail about my car. He had neat photos from the rebuild. More on that later.

    So, I drove the car down to him and dropped it off. Now, I have owned this car for 11 months and driven it about 3,000 miles or more. It is the only Daytona I have ever driven. It has always run strong and well.... at least to me. Over the past several months it had begun to pop and bang through the exhaust some so I figured it was running a bit rich. Still, I was happy with how it drove.

    A few days after my dropping it off.... Terry calls me. He says that right after I dropped the car off, he took it for a brief test drive. He said that based on his prior experience with the car (he serviced it for 25 years for the prior owner) it ran like crap. He said it had never popped in the exhaust like that and he felt it was down on power, not revving up like it should and generally just "not right". So, he took it back to the shop and tested each cylinder.... and he found that 2 cylinders were dead. He put a compression tester on it, and got 0psi on one and only 25psi on the other. At this point in his story, I am having a FREAKING HEART ATTACK!!!!

    He said he was confused now. So... he started messing with it. Changed all the plugs (which were the wrong type... installed by FOA last year apparently. He showed me the old plugs and they were a mess. 2 of them were coated in black clumpy crap) reset timing, ran some oil through the dead cylinders and turned it over without plugs installed. Basically.. he "fiddled with it" a bunch. He spent several hours doing various stuff. He got it running on all 12. Then after driving it around and running some fuel additive through it designed to clean off any carbon, he tested compression again: 175psi as a low, 183psi as a high on all 12 cylinders! Both of the problem cylinders now show middle of the range and no issues. Terry believes there was carbon and crap built up on the valve seats causing poor compression readings. During this tuning process he also discovered cracked diaphrams on several carbs, and the little plugs inside the float bowl on 2 carbs had fallen out and were fouling the float bowl valve. The accelerator pumps were also messed up. So... it had some serious carb issues as well. The biggest issue was that the car had at least intermitently only been running on 10 cylinders causing increased carbon buildup in the other 2.

    At the end of this story, Terry had me feeling better but I was still basically petrified that my engine was going downhill fast. Terry assured me this was anything but the case, and asked me to come down and drive the car. So I did.

    HOLY FREAKING COW!!!! This is a different car. I dont know when exactly it started running on only 10 cylinders (before i got it????), but this car now runs in a totally different manner to how it has ever run in my ownership. It is not fast.... its FREAKING INSANE. The velocity stacks really make it howl and wail like I could not believe. I had always complained that this car was too quiet. No more. It now shrieks like I could not believe!. It shoves you into the seat and revs like I could not believe. I am ecstatic at this point... Terry Girone in my book is a man of magic!

    I was still worried about the long term effects on the engine. Terry basically said I was very lucky (to which I totally agree!). He said with compression this good and even and the oil pressure the car shows (when warm at 3000 rpm I get 5.5+ on the euro guage.... over 75psi) it is in perfect health now.

    Then he gave me details on the engine rebuild he had done. I knew the prior owner had specified a pretty hot engine, but I didnt know all the minute details. The car has Borgo factory competition pistons, shot peened connecting rods, the cylinder liners were replaced with custom made items of a much harder steel that wont wear out or pit anywhere near as quickly, the flywheel was lightened and the entire engine was blueprinted and balanced to within a gram at 8000rpm. They really went nuts on the cylinder heads. They were ported and polished, larger intake and exhaust valves installed necessitating re-worked valve angles which also effected how the porting was done. Custom made stainless valves were done. Custom matching valve guides and special rubber valve seals were installed. P6 cams were used. Terry is clearly proud of all the work that went into this engine and REALLY bragged on the guy who did all the machine work and custom fabrication. The photos of the engine parts show piston tops, cylinder head combustion chambers, valves and ports that shine like chrome and are VERY impressive. Terry has a blown up photo of all the engine parts arrayed on a table framed over his desk (yes, I am getting a copy for my office!) My hat is off to the prior owner... he really went nuts on this engine rebuild!

    I am so psyched now and cannot wait to get the car back! For now, I am going to run with the velocity stacks and some screens on them that Terry is fabricating. Later, based on specs and plans that Bill Badurski provided, I will fabricate a factory style cold airbox.

    Moral of this story: Drive multiple examples of a car your looking to purchase AND let a real pro help with your maintenance from time to time! Terry Girone at Old World has really been great!


    Terry
     
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  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Great Post!
    Best
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    44,458
    Texas!
    Thanks for the post, Terry. I keep thinking that it would be great to go back in time and buy a vintage Ferrari, but the reality is that I don't really have the time at this point in my life to fool with an old car. But, my daughter is 20 and my son is 17, so there is hope yet.

    Pls let us know the next chapter, Dale
     
  5. cochise

    cochise Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    139
    Lake Mary, Florida
    Full Name:
    Dempsey Chavis
    Terry, Great post. Just reinforces the old "good things happen to good people" addage(sp). By that I mean that, your special Daytona needed a special owner - afflicted with the model specific bug.! Someone else said something to the effect that we never truly own these machines - just serve as caretakers till the next progression ...So, if/when you are ready to pass the Daytona ...hopefully I'll be 1st in line. For I too truly, have an affliction for these cars , coupes. Best of luck
     
  6. Bill Sawyer

    Bill Sawyer Formula 3

    Feb 26, 2002
    2,108
    Georgia
    Wow! That must have been a heart wrenching experience. There's a real lesson in this post. Those of us who aren't as mechanically experienced and inclined as you are could really screw up if we didn't get the right advice.

    I'm glad it all worked out well. One things for sure, you'll use the Daytona the way it was meant to be used, and that's a good thing!
     
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  8. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,938
    USA
    Glad to hear it all worked out - now go drive those 12 cylinders!
     
  9. 365boy

    365boy Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    344
    Brighton, England
    Full Name:
    John Leaman
    I have just been through a similar experience with my Daytona.

    Took it back for a fettle 1,000 miles after an engine rebuild to be told that it was not firing on all 12...

    Reason...?

    Not warming the engine through sufficiently on start up, which meant that on a long run carbon - or whatever - was building up and making things worse. Also, as with yours, the plugs were wrong (not 'hot' enough for a relatively 'cold' engine) and have been changed.

    Now the affected bores have been cleaned and the carburation re-set. All the compression stuff was sorted at the rebuild stage (one cylinder was down..).

    So, now I have the beastie working as God intended - and what a different car it is.

    Even without a custom engine, it is majestic - particularly in anything from 2nd to 4th gear between 60 to 90 mph... All that torque.

    Only slight problem is that I have to sit in the garage for about 20 minutes each time I use it, blipping the engine and listening to it settle down.

    Life's a *****... :)

    John
     
  10. F SPIDER

    F SPIDER F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jan 30, 2002
    2,873
    NYC, A'dam, W'stock
    Full Name:
    rijk rietveld
    A few months ago I had a problem that the car did not want to run well, but after a lot of trying, it turned out to be just a tank of bad gas. Now its running great again at almost 90 psi when warm.

    I always like it when WWoC tels me that my Daytona runs so fantastic compared to other ones they have in service, but probably they say this to every costumer.
     
  11. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 17, 2002
    957
    San diego
    Full Name:
    Malcolm Barksdale
    Boy Dale, you just NEVER run out of weasly excuses. And you look so young....
     
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  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    44,458
    Texas!
    LOL :)
     
  14. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 8, 2003
    6,583
    So. Cal
    Full Name:
    Armen
    Great story!!! One day i'd like to tell a Daytona story. One Day!!!!!
     
  15. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Sounds to me like it just needed whats called an Italian tune up ... ie. a bloody good hard thrash :D. That usually clears the carbon and away you go ... but am very pleased to hear that it is all sorted and sounds like a beauty.

    You are a lucky man indeed.

    Pete
     
  16. F SPIDER

    F SPIDER F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jan 30, 2002
    2,873
    NYC, A'dam, W'stock
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    rijk rietveld
    John,

    Why do you have to sit in the garage for 20 minutes and blip the engine? I never heard about that.

    It takes me 10-15 miles to warm up the engine (stay below 3000 revs and skip 2nd gear). I thought that idling the engine would just create the build-up.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Don't do that. As soon as you have oil psi drive gently until it warms up then stand on it. Prolonged idle is a disaster, and "blipping" under no load is NG as well.
     
  18. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

    May 1, 2002
    2,108
    SC USA
    I have just had my blue daytona serbiced at FOA. Some months ago, Bill Badurski recommended that I use hotter plugs as the factory recommended ones were too cold for the car. It used to foul the plugs every other time i drove it and when I removed the plugs they were coated with carbon. Since the plugs replacement, I have not had to take one out yet. The car starts and runs every time.

    However, I was running the car without the digiplexes. I decided to have FOA install the MSD units, which they did quite professionally and they also replaced the plug wires which were old, and retuned the car. It now has developed a slight hesitation...and I am not terrifically happy with it. They claim a carburetter rebuild may be in the works. I have inspected and replaced cracked carburetter diaphragms recently and reset the carburetter levels...I dont think I have issues there.

    Has anyone used additives in the gasoline to try and clean junk in the fuel system? If so, can someone tell me what to use and how to use it. My daytona used to be a scream, and MotorCarGalleries from Ft Lauderdale who sold it back in the 80's still call me and ask me about his car. They remember it as a very well performing car. They want to buy it back from me, but they dont offer enough money for it.

    Can anyone help? I will be taking the car back to atlanta, as the air conditioning work they did was for naught and needs more attention. Suggestions?
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Techron as an additive will help with carbon. A good blowing out is essential as well.
    AC? replace compressor with a Japanese unit. They are small and work much better. You may also want to replace condensor. I'd use an aftermarket one.
    Much cheaper and better. Put in an inline duct booster fan. All of this is available from Summit.
    Best
    PS. Is alignment correct? Steering wheel looks turned with wheel's straight.
    Pretty car.
     
  20. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

    May 1, 2002
    2,108
    SC USA
    Yes the wheels are aligned...I had some work done on the steering wheel, had one of my helpers install it for me, and he did not install it correctly..problem solved since...you are quite observant
     
  21. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Terry Girone has some fuel additive he uses and recommends very strongly. His words to me: "This stuff leaves the ports and valves looking like the engine was just built". I cannot remember the name of the stuff, but will get it. He is getting me several quartes of it to take home.

    Terry is at Old World Motors in Tucker, GA. Call him at 770-938-0908. Coachi.... you should take you car to Terry. Not only is he closer to you than FOA, he has more experience with these cars. With the MSD units you should not use a solid core plug wire, so you may want to check that.

    Terry has done A/C upgrades on a Daytona in the past. He actually totally upgraded the A/C in my car during the early 1980s using an assortment of parts and he swears it would freeze you out at that time. But in the late 1980s when the values were going nuts, the prior owner obtained all the factory A/C stuff and had that installed instead. Now its the proverbial 3 mice blowing over an ice cube.

    The A/C issue does not seem to be an issue relative to how cold the air is.... its that the fans move so little volume of air. I talked at length with the people at Performance Air out in CA. They make tons of differently sized blower/evaporator systems designed to be used in any car. The have done custom installs on everything from '32 Ford hotrods to 300SL Gullwings.... all in such a way that it appears totally stock.

    I explained the need to have a fan unit that would attack to the factory hoses, fit inside the factory A/C unit under dash space and behind the factory facia. They said they were 100% confident they have a unit that will work, but need detailed measurements of the space and specs on the hose attachments. Brackets will of coarse need to be fabricated. I am thinking of going this route.

    Since getting the brackets engineered and determining exactly what parts to use will represent the greatest expense, it would seem a smart move to get 3-4 of us South East area Daytona owners together and have someone like Terry convert all our cars at the same time. I want my car to appear 100% stock, but if we can have some really efficient system hidden behind the factory facia panel resulting in hard blowing cold air..... sign me up!


    Terry
     
  22. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

    May 1, 2002
    2,108
    SC USA
    what do you suggest for plugs? I am confused here...I have some NGK's but dont know what they are ...they seem to work...and how about emailing me the name of that cleaner...I want some
     
  23. F SPIDER

    F SPIDER F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jan 30, 2002
    2,873
    NYC, A'dam, W'stock
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    rijk rietveld
    Jim,

    I'm not idling and blipping here, that was John. I was just asking him why. I do what you say (as always)
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Rijk
    That was directed at John. I know you'd never do something wacky like that.
    Best
     
  25. 365boy

    365boy Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    344
    Brighton, England
    Full Name:
    John Leaman
    Thanks guys. Oh dear...

    I'm not idling it for 20 mins, but holding it around 1500-2000.. Waiting until the water temp goes up a bit - but the oil pressure gauge registers 70psi immediately on start up.

    So, do I still drive straight off...? Answers please before tomorrow morning...!

    John
     
  26. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    John
    Think of it like this. You're asleep. You wake up. Instead of jumping up you sit up slowly, gather yourself for a moment and shuffle off in search of a cup of coffee.
    Start your car. Clutch in. Don't give it any more gas than necessary to keep it from stalling. Let the oil psi come up. Put it in N with the clutch out for a moment to get trans oil flowing. Start out calmly. Drive moderately untill water temp comes up. Stay below 3500 rpm until oil temp comes up. Stir the shifter. When fully warmed up have at it.
    Best
     
  27. F SPIDER

    F SPIDER F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jan 30, 2002
    2,873
    NYC, A'dam, W'stock
    Full Name:
    rijk rietveld
    John,

    I think you should have more than 70 psi on a cold start. I have 105psi when cold.
     
  28. billb

    billb Formula Junior
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jun 4, 2001
    407
    Shorewood, IL
    Full Name:
    Bill Badurski
    coachi,
    Hesitation is generally either an ignition timing issue or carb issue. Ensure they got the static timing right on both banks. Recheck carbs for accelerator pump spray when opening throttle. If these are OK, next is carb adjustment as butterflies may be off location or mixture may need tweaking. I doubt that a carb overhaul is necessary, unless something got plugged during the time it was being serviced, which is unlikely.
     

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