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DCT issue: shift from 1st to 2nd gear and reverse

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by wlt, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. wlt

    wlt Karting

    Feb 15, 2013
    171
    Dallas
    I have noticed an issue with the gear shifts since the weather got much colder during the last month or so. I start the car and wait for about 3-5 minutes to warm up the engine, then set it in race mode and open the exhaust valves with the Capristo remote.

    I engage first gear, no problem. Once I press the gas through 7K rpms in first gear and then try to shift to second, it won't shift. If I click the shifter twice it goes to third gear. If I don't click the shifter and wait while keep pressing the gas it hits the rev limiter (of course).

    I thought it is only doing it in race mode, but I tried starting in sport and it does the same thing. Rarely, it will do it while driving on the road after the engine has definitely warmed up. It always happens on a shift from 1st to 2nd gear (and when I am between 7-9K rpms).

    I believe it is an issue of delay rather than not engaging the 2nd gear. I have the car for 4 months ('14 1400 miles). It didn't have a gear change issue until recently.

    The other issue that I had from the beginning is that often when trying to engage reverse gear, or 1st gear from reverse, it requires trying twice (the first time, it will not respond). This is actually quite dangerous as once I was stopped close to wall and didn't notice that it didn't engage the intended gear, it's a good thing I was soft on the gas, and I'm really careful since then, I don't assume with this car that once I hit the R button or I click the shifter the car will do what it is supposed to do.

    Anyone has noticed similar issues?

    I talked to my dealer's service and they asked me to drop the car. I can't drop it during the next 2 weeks, but won't be driving the car, and I will drop it immediately afterwards.
     
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  3. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    83,565
    Vegas baby
    Get it to the dealer. It's under warranty so it's no big deal

    I doubt the weather has anything to do with it. Some reports of missed shifts have been faulty switches in the paddles but that doesn't explain reverse.
     
  4. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jul 3, 2006
    27,569
    Aspen CO 81611
    Full Name:
    FelipeNotMassa
    Try wet mode until the car warms up.

    Best.
     
  5. Noblesse Oblige

    Noblesse Oblige F1 Veteran

    Nov 7, 2011
    6,088
    Three Places
    Ditto.

    The fact that the problem involves shifts from one shaft gearset (gear 1,3,5,7) to another (gears 2,4,6, and R) suggests that the clutches are not disengaging/engaging the way they should. This is one of the failure modes that was observed in some early 458 examples. The solution in those case was to replace the transmission.
     
  6. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,143
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith

    Had a similar problem on my 458 spider. Turned out it was the paddle shifter unit. Was not always signaling a shift. Heard another spider owner saw the same problem. Yours will be the third. They replaced the unit and no problem thereafter.

    SV
     
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  8. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    On my Cali, I had 3 DCT failures which resulted in the inability to use the odd side of the box.

    Reverse is contained on the even side of the box.

    Getrag DCTs have had many failures, not just with the Ferrari, but also with BMW and other marques who use their DCT transmission.

    The newer DCTs are supposed to be much more reliable though. I hope that is the case since I have a two week old 458 spider in my garage.
     
  9. Russell996

    Russell996 Formula 3

    Sep 24, 2010
    2,250
    New Forest UK
    Full Name:
    Russell
    7k revs after warming at idle for 3 mins - gulp!
     
  10. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    5,754
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Yes, just as an aside, you need to warm up the gear box and the suspension before high revs and aggressive driving. Idling the engine does not accomplish this, only moderate driving does.
     
  11. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2001
    1,811
    FL, OR
    On the reverse issue, are you really pressing on the brake peddle when you push the R button? happened to me a lot untill I learned to press hard.
     
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  13. wlt

    wlt Karting

    Feb 15, 2013
    171
    Dallas
    Thanks so much for the very useful advice. I do hope it's not DCT failure, but I will have the car checked soon with service.

    On the issue of the warm-up, you're absolutely right. Page 140 of the owner's manual states: "After starting, do not exceed 4,000 RPM until the engine has warmed up (oil temperature: 149-158F)". I should have known this. I will follow this from now on, especially, given the freezing conditions during the morning as of late.

    I know what you're saying, I will make sure that I press harder on the brake and see if this changes anything.
     
  14. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 29, 2010
    14,192
    Wyoming
    #11 arizonaitalian, Jan 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
    +1. (My CS takes over 10 minutes of driving to warm the oil...3 min wouldn't move the needle from its rest...do 458's warm up faster?)

    OP - best of luck with getting this issue resolved...keep us posted on how it turns out.
     
  15. 458dreamer

    458dreamer Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2012
    760
    Dubai
    I have a 14' that I have put 7000 kms on so far. No issues with shifting or getting into reverse, always works on first attempt. You have a fault that dealer needs to address.

    Unrelated to your issue, my observation is that in race mode shifting from 1st to 2nd in the high rpms is often jerky. It feels like a kick.
     
  16. Entropy

    Entropy Formula 3
    Owner

    Jul 10, 2008
    2,151
    Correct.

    Clearly, getting in and banging a cold car to 9K is not advisable, but probably not the issue here. As N.O. indicates, some of the early DCT's had internal issues with wiring and sensors; at the time, the DCT was new and a swap was the easy fix.

    However, the DCT's have been generationally improved (been learning a lot about DCT's from racing and my friend/mechanic, who is FNA trained on DCT repair now).

    To isolate the fault, you need to plug the car in to the dealer's DEIS. It could be a faulty paddle switch, but that would occur in ALL or most of your up (or down)shifts. Chances are you have 1) a sensor fault and/or 2) a software-based error. It could be something more involved (i.e. hardware). The fact that it's 1-2 and R only (vs. 3-4, 5-6 as well) is something that needs to be figured out.

    Remember, the DCT is actually electro-hydraulic in its operation. Fluid levels, or a balky switch or sensor could be involved. (eg. a friend of mine had odd-or-even only shifting, turned out his gearbox had incorrect fluid level after a service).

    A challenge is that the DCT is (still) relatively new, and expertise and experience on faults is limited at most dealers, so diagnosing (other than obvious faults) can sometimes be a pain. (there was a thread here recently about the car popping into neutral that took a while to isolate).

    Don't panic- it may be annoying but is fixable. BTW I would let the car (and you) warm up a bit before hammering it...
     
  17. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    The other issue that I had from the beginning is that often when trying to engage reverse gear, or 1st gear from reverse, it requires trying twice (the first time, it will not respond). This is actually quite dangerous as once I was stopped close to wall and didn't notice that it didn't engage the intended gear, it's a good thing I was soft on the gas, and I'm really careful since then, I don't assume with this car that once I hit the R button or I click the shifter the car will do what it is supposed to do.

    Anyone has noticed similar issues?

    I talked to my dealer's service and they asked me to drop the car. I can't drop it during the next 2 weeks, but won't be driving the car, and I will drop it immediately afterwards.[/QUOTE]


    I have experienced exactly the same issue with having trouble with reverse and First gear.

    Please let me know your outcome with the dealer. I will also bring in my
    car to have this problem sorted.
     
  18. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,143
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith
    Is going into reverse which uses the r button switch, or going into first which uses the paddle shifter? In mine it was the latter. The paddle shift module was faulty. Up and downshifts ok tho.

    SV
     
  19. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,401
    Full Name:
    Michael
    #16 4th_gear, Jan 2, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    I've experienced the same problem with reverse and 1st gear. The gear change sometimes does not happen the first time and you have to be very careful not to gas it too hard or be really fast to catch it before you run into something or someone. Yes, (not) going to 1st from R was the more scary one. Pressing R more than once to get into reverse was less scary.

    Nowadays I momentarily pause the car before engaging a complete reversal of direction and that seems to do the trick. In the past I may have tried to engage the reverse direction just as I braked to a complete halt and the two events may have been too close together so the opposing gear change may have still been locked out. I think for me at least, it was partly due to my getting so used to easy fast gear changes that I was no longer pausing after coming to a full stop like I normally do with a manual transmission.
     
  20. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,143
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith
    Try this: pull both paddles and go into neutral. Then pull on up paddle and go into first. Do it repeatedly. Does that ever fail? If so, then you likely have a bad paddle module.

    Also, mine got worse over time...

    SV
     
  21. wlt

    wlt Karting

    Feb 15, 2013
    171
    Dallas
    I drove the car again before taking to the dealer to ensure the issues are not resulting from my ignorance:

    1) I tried several times at different stops, R->1, 1->R. Each time I didn't press the brake pedal firmly, it didn't change gear and displayed an error message. When I had my foot firm on the brake, it changed gears fine. So, this one is definitely due to my ignorance as a newbie.

    2) Taking the car out (outside temp 2 degrees below freezing), I started slow no more than 4K RPMs (1st gear for a while on race mode and valves open). The first time I changed gear 1->2, there was a slight delay. After the car warmed up (temp >= 175F), drove it for 50 miles often hard with no problem at all changing gears, no delay at any point. I will try again and if there are no issues, I will not waste my time or the dealer's time. This one also may very well be due to my ignorance not letting the engine and transmission warm up properly before driving the car hard.

    Thanks all for the solid feedback and the good points. I won't update further if there is no other development. Best.
     
  22. leead1

    leead1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 29, 2006
    2,823
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Lee
    I am glad it did not turn out to be anything serious. I keep my 458 on Old fogy mode untill the little engine turns green. Then I switch to race and drive normally for a short while before I get into the car. I am not sure if that is right or wrong but so far so good :)

    Enjoy your car

    Lee
     

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