Did the Germans copy our F4U Corsair .....gull wing design, or was it, that we copied their JU 87 dive bomber ? ? (as pictured in the "Technical Q&A forum" in the "T-6 Attach Angle AD thread, posting # 12" ) Reference <snipped from>: http://www.flight-history.com/arch/showstory.php?contentID=49 The first flight of the (Ju 87V) was early on in 1935: The next pre-production prototype was the (Ju 87A-O) which flew November1936: Number three of the prototypes (Ju87D-1) flew in 1940. The first prototype was powered by a British RollsRoyce Kestrel engine, designed with a twin tail configuration. During the dive tests the tail collapsed and the aircraft was destroyed. The second prototype was a single tail design and was powered by thee Junkers Jumo 210A (610 hp). Further improvements to the third prototype led to and order of ten Ju87A-O, powered with the Jumo 210Ca engine (640 hp) At the beginning of WWII, the Germans had 336 Ju87B airworthy. Charlie
I don't want to sound professorial but I remember that the gull wing config. on the Vought F4U was designed to accomodate the huge dia. propeller without requiring a long landing gear that would be prone to failiures when landing ( pounding )on carriers. The Ju87 gull wing was probably designed for bomb loading access and operations out of rough fields......my guess. Maybe if Prof. STUKA was alive you could ask him, Charlie. Anyway, subsequent users of the marvelous R2800 hung 4 bladed props AND long landing gears on the airplane. Switches
Hey Switches, I agree... Was privvy to that same story somewhere... RE: F4U's Huge prop / gull wing design. However I don't care why it was designed, but rather, whose was earlier, or, did the design develop simultaneously, or was there some Cloak and dagger work involved?... or was the design just copied outright?? And, if copied.... who from whom? There must be some info somewhere, I just haven't been able to find it yet. I've asked the Prof. but he refuses to reply to my calls....... There's an inquiring mind out here... Mine... Charlie PS. Ya didn't notice the play on words in the title?? You're slippin.... kick in that rudder !! De. = abbreviation for......... ?? .
I'm sorry Charlie, you lost me on the De. I'm a little weak on my pigin German and a little weak from a bout with food poisoning. But I'll offer what I know re gull wing designs. The F4U was designed circa 1940-41 and I doubt that any cloak and dagger ops had anything to do with it. Vought had to do something to cope with a 13 foot dia. prop, Junkers problems were far different. From working in the airplane industry since 1950 I saw many of the same design solutions derived at by separate engineers because they simply worked out the only answer to the design problem. But sometimes due to business strategies as in the DC-10-L1011 competition, the engineering solutions are adulterated and poor decisions are made to shortcut the schedule with less then the best design. I refer to the strut design on the DC-10 and the cargo door, also. My opinion in case anyone takes offense. I have worked with the absolute best engineers in the business and I was a small part in the creation of the 777 of which I am very proud. Switches
OK. The wordplay is: De. = abbreviation for the country name ( Deutschland ). It is also used as a slang substitute for an ethnic pronunciation of the word "THE". The Chicken or egg debate, remains a constant. So it followed, in my twisted mind....that "De. chicken or De. egg" read... "Was Germany the chicken (De. chicken) or was it the egg (De. egg), in the timeline of design." In my mind, it was as clear, as a new pair of glasses, . It loses much, when explained.... Anyhow, I've learned that the JU-87, was designed in the year 1933-34. That makes the JU-87, the "chicken." Parallel design didn't enter the equation, since the "egg", (F-4U) wasn't conceived (by your information), till early 40's. Fully six, or more years later. **In late 1936 three Ju 87A-1s were sent to Spain, followed in 1938 by three Ju 87B-1s. The war in Spain was more important for the Ju 87 than the other way around, for it was in Spain that the Germans developed their air-ground cooperation doctrine. **On 1 September 1939, at 04:26 hours, three Ju 87Bs took off for the very first bombing attack of World War II (Dirshau Poland) I can't beleive that there was no knowlege by US designers at Vought, of the prior German design, because: ** By 1940-41, the Stuka had already made a name for itself in Britain, where the Luftwaffe amassed a force that included 336 Ju 87s, of which about 280 were operational. I now believe, that it may have transpired, that at some point, a design engineer at Vought, saw a pic of the stuka, and may have thought "Hey This idea, will work to accomodate the big prop". Or Mebbe..... I've got it all wrong, and it was a carefully conceived plan using good old American ingenuity from the getgo... In either case it made for some good thought exercise.
Yes, good mental exercise but still the F4U wing was a function of answering a unique design problem . Inverted gull wings pose indeterminate stress calculations and design problems so they, for obvious reasons, are over-designed and are therefore over- weight to an unknown degree. Vought pulled off a great fighter in spite of this, possibly trading a heavier longer landing gear for a heavier wing plus the huge weight penalty of wing folding mechanism. I have often thought that you could lighten that airplane by several tons if the wings were relieved of the machinery to fold them and modern design techniques were used in the spar structure. It is still a fabulous airplane. The Germans with thier typical straight forward no frills engeering simply kept all the elements in straight lines and joined the wings with humungous bolts and fittings and I'm certain that the STURZKAMPFLUGZUEG was designed for rapid loading in the forward lines of action since it was an extension of the Wermacht artillery. It was a big, hard, tough machine. Switches
So! We agree? Big. bad@rse machine?? With funny looking bird wings!, that made like a Pigeon, and dropped the nasty stuff where it wasn't wanted??? / \ ....... / \... / "mumble, mumble, grumble, mumble..." ....... "Fall In! ...........Ah-Ten-HUT!!!" "Left Showel-dah, Houp!" | | | | | ........... "Rite Showel-dah Houp!" | | | | | ........... " Port...... Houp!! /... /.../.../.../ ........... "Ordah.... Houp!" , , , , , ........... "Standat... Hease." \ \ \ \ \ ........... Dismissed! WOOOSH! >>>>>>> Charlie
