Degreeing engines and other maladies | FerrariChat

Degreeing engines and other maladies

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Artvonne, Aug 18, 2006.

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  1. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    I see many threads have ran on about changing timing belts and the need or the lack thereof of using a degree wheel to set valve timing. Many just line up the marks the factory guys put on the cams and call it good. In fact, when I got the first car, I wanted to replace the timing belts right away so I could drive with peace of mind, and did so. But I couldnt get a big degree wheel to fit so I just used the marks and hoped they were close. But those were P6 cams, and I really should have done the degree wheel thing with them.

    I recently picked up another 77 308 GTB as a parts car, and have ended up making it a driver. Or at least something that runs and keeps me out in the garage cussing under my breath as to why any sane person needs two Ferrari.

    So anyway, the while your in there thing is beating me up. So far I have replaced both exhaust headers with the engine in the car, removed and cleaned the starter, swapped out the alternator, and have cleaned and cleaned and cleaned some more. No one would ever recognise it for the POS it looked like. But being a driver to get me moving around in a 308 for the summer, I tried my darndest to just make it run okay and not do anything stupid. I am here to tell you Enzo will have none of this. He has made me do things two, three, sometimes more than five times just to make an idiot out of me for not respecting a peice of his machinery better. If I have said it once, I have probably said it 130 times "I SHOULD HAVE PULLED THE MOTOR OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!". All the silly rediculous time I have wasted trying to move around and contort myself to do the things I have done, and its still dirty in places. Because my intent was to do this crap in the winter, I initially just wanted a quick service, make it run decent, and DRIVE the darn thing! But NOOOOOOO its just gonna pain me and force me to go through EVERYTHING that makes sparks, batters valves, sucks air and fuel, or has a bolt or a screw attached to it or through it. And then you have the oil leaks that show up on old cars. Cam seals, distributor seals, gaskets,....

    So I finally decided FINE, I'll do the cam seals and other stuff and clean it somemore. Only this time I inteded to put Scotts Cam Sprockets on the car. Then I changed my mind. I bought those for when I build the other motor, and no way I would put them on a car that still needing more engine cleaning and engine compartment cleaning. I am still in making it a driver mode on this car. Driver/parts car. Yeah right. The darn thing has stolen so many parts off the good car I should reverse the idea of which car is a parts car. Okay back to these seals and oil leaks. I have new timing belts, they only have 40 miles on them. Yup, I am gonna run em. I do NOT have new tensioner bearings, but I had everything else, new gaskets, seals, etc. Been saving ahead. I only want a few months of fun and I swear I will make it right later, but dammit, money here, money there, and pull it back apart this winter? I have four good tensioner bearings. I put the smoothest two on the car. So shoot me. Its so much better than either car came to me I am NOT gonna worry about it when some have gone decades and over 30K miles on the same belts and bearings. Now for the gist of this thread.

    I degree wheeled it. I made a metal wheel out of aluminum sheet, and scribed lines on it every 5 degrees. I made it just big enough to clear the oil relief valve. About 6 inches or so. Now for all of you who feel the cam and timing marks are "good enough", read on. The flywheel marks were "off" 3 degrees retarded. I cant move the metal pointer that far, it would have to be removed and slotted to match the flywheel marks right. I just magic marked the clutch housing for now. On to the cams. To be honest, not one mark is actually right on. Not if I want it timed like I timed it. But what the He$$ is this? The rear intake cam was off 24 degree? One full tooth on the belt? Probably thats how it was done last time? Car ran pretty good too.

    I analysed books and read many threads on valve timing, including Keith Blumels complete Ferrari V8. Suffice to say its kind of a black art and more information is missing than can really help you. That is until you start to recognise lobe centers. Regardless of tappet clearance the max lift is generally centered on the cam lobe, at least on Ferrari, so I began looking at where the timing was situated. The early Euro carb cars had slightly different timing, and the exhaust cams actually are listed with 10 degrees "less" duration. Yet those motors are listed with 255 HP. US cars with more exhaust duration list at only 240HP but valve timing is 4 degrees different. Is 4 degrees of intake timing worth 15 HP???? By the marks themselves, 4 degrees is about .020 thou. But which way would YOU have to go for the 15 HP????Looking over as much information as we have available, the euro car and the USA car have basically identical engines except the exhaust was more restrictive on the early US cars. So once it has an Ansa on it all that remains is to time it the same?

    I dunno. I looked at all this stuff until I was seeing double. I kept coming back to lobe centers. And thats how I went. I watched the valves open and close with a dial indicator, and plotted the events on paper degree wheels I printed. The stock marks were off some. I spent all afternoon and most of the evening repinning the sprockets back and forth trying to get it "right". The back of the motor is easy, the front is a biotch. And when you have a lil vino to add to the day you go advanced instead of retard, and visa versa. Makes it a lot longer job. But I did it. Intakes are now both right on at 100 degree lobe centers, exhausts are at 90.

    I also found rediculous valve clearances with some exhausts 17 and 20 thou, some intakes 14 and 15 thou. What kind of monkeys were working on this thing??? I shot for .009 on the intakes and .011 on the exhausts and pretty much have it nailed down now. Tomorrow I will drop the oil pan, clean it, look things over and start buttoning it all back up. I am resisting going to far with stuff, but its pretty easy to get busy cleaning up more stuff once you get your fingers dirty. But with one cam cover black, and the other bare aluminum, and as neglected as this poor car was treated, I felt it needed some dressing up. Enter one can of red wrinkle paint and some stainless steel acorn nuts.
     
  2. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    excellent. great post.
     
  3. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,426
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post.....I found myself nodding my head many times as I read it, in total agreement. I did the degree wheel timing thing on a Testarossa I used to own. I determined TDC by using a dial indicator on top of the piston, and also using a piston-stop tool. The flywheel mark was spot on. I then went and timed the cams and found the timing to be off from what the manual says. I checked and rechecked and came up with the same results. Then I found out my manual had the Euro car timing events and not the US version! Once I had the correct specs everything fell into place like clockwork. Like Artvonne I plotted out the cam lobe lift and duration on paper and yes the lobes were symmetrical, meaning the up and down ramps had the same shape. I also noticed that when lining up the camshaft mark with the cam retainer cap mark, you could be 1 to almost 2 degrees off and still be "on the mark". The total cam rotation (in crankshaft degrees) using the whole width of the cam cap mark and eyeballing the camshaft mark was 3 degrees. Meaning this could be the amount of error someone could expect when eyeballing everything. Another thought is...the timing belts do stretch and contract and the camshafts do slightly oscillate (not maintain the same velocity of rotation) when the engine is running. I wonder how many degrees of variation occurs from this?

    Ohhhhh...sorry guys...I'm rambling. Need another cup of coffee yet this morning. Thank You ARTVONNE for posting....very good write up.
     

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