dino charging problem

c

Dennis,
There are only two bolts in US cars. Put vise grips in bolt and twist. It has to come out. You are almost there. Read my sagas concerning alternator. I think there are 4. Once you have done it once, no problem, first time hell. Keep at it.
John

 

Please accept my apologies there are only two, the top retaining nut plus large Nut & bolt on bottom.

 

Dennis-
It looks like you may have an oil leak judging by your pictures. The exhaust system won't get in your way when you are taking this out. Just remember the position of the mounting lugs when removing the alternator (see earlier post). It is a tight fit but use that slight cut out in the gas tank to give you add'l room as you slide it down It will seem impossible but it is not. That aluminum cannister that houses the alternator is a rough housing and often times you have to bang those bolts out. When you have the alternator out (it will come out) then you have a few decisions to make; do you merely have the original unit rebuilt and be done with it or do you put a more modern unit in? As I have explained previously if you elect to use a more modern unit the mounting lugs are very different. The Magnetti unit that you are removing has a mount to it that is similar to a fork (sort of) and the mount lugs are spaced about 4" from each other. A modern unit has only one lug that is long and all in one piece. So the modern unit may fit into the waffle alum cannister with some adjusting. I have not done it though. However, all is not lost! I pulled my waffle cannister (I saved it tho') and mounted a euro bracket that I bought from Dinoparts.de ( I think that is the name). If you look at OMGJON's set up ( I believe it is page #74 & 76 or so) you will see the euro mount. It gives you a lot more room to work with and once that darn waffle cannister is out you can maneuver much better. So you should decide which set up you prefer. If you do elect to keep the waffle cannister it is easy to remove from the block & file down the rough casting parts in order for the reassembly to be easier with the Magnetti alternator. I was surprised at how poorly it was cast and how many of the joints abutted one another. If you do this it will make it a lot easier to put back together with the alternator. There is lots of info here about alternators as John Corbani has said. There is one other item to consider. If you have gotten oil dripping on the alternator it is coming from the chain tensioner housing just above the alternator. Jim Selevan saved me from a near death (or so I thought) experience when I attempted to fix the leak from mine on Saturday. It is relatively easy to fix and I can help you with details of how to do it. Again, none of this is impossible and you have done most of the hard work already. I can help you with whatever option you choose as I have done both! If you would like to talk about this via phone pls email me at [email protected] and I'll give you my tel #. Good luck..you are almost there!!

 

Dennis,
Champtc has you going in the right direction. I remove the little bracket that holds the exhaust shield. One less scrape on the hands. I clean up the housing fit too. Alternator shop cleans and replaces brushes for about $65. No need to go to more amps. Easier to fix leak and replace brushes every 20,000-30,000 miles, if necessary.
John

 

I dont understand why you are advocating removing the heat exchanger and even contemplating touching the petrol tank!! (we all know how weak they are)

Unbolting the manifold and sliding the alternator out the other end is much easier.

2hrs tops

But you may have different Dino to me!!!

Tony

 

John Corbani wrote: "Physics class only told you half of the story. Auto alternators do have brushes. They do not work nearly as hard as those DC generators and motors though.
The brushes in a DC generator handle the full output current as they run against a commutator. Typically 50 amps or more through a million small pieces of copper. Output comes from the coils on the rotating armature. Outside this armature are field coils that provide a magnetic field. The voltage regulator varies the voltage going to the field to control charging.
Alternators turn things inside out. Fixed coils outside the armature provide the output and the armature coil is fed a small current to control that output. The outside coils generate AC voltage that is converted to DC by a string of Silicon diodes. The armature coil gets its current from the voltage regulator through two brushes rubbing against 2 smooth slip rings. These brushes typically carry less than 2 amps so should last almost forever. Unless they get oil on themselves. Then the brushes turn to mush and you have to replace them.
It all makes sense. Alternators were not practical DC sources until solid state diodes were invented. Now they are universal.
John"

John - EXCELLENT description of the differences between alternator and generator.

People just don't realize how much (electrical) power must go through the brushes of a generator, not to mention the mechanical wear due to the segmented commutator.

For what it's worth, I have never had to replace brushes on ANY alternator equipped Ferrari.

One of the most common causes of alternator failure is the front bearing. I have seen people pry on them until the belt is just way too tight.
Here's what I do: I tighten the drive belt until I can just barely make the drive pulley slip when turning it by hand. I've been doing this for years and consequently have NEVER had a bearing failure. The belt may slip/screech a bit when wet but that's just a few seconds.

What would you rather replace - a belt or an alternator??????????????????

For what it's worth, my Aerostar van at more than 271,000 miles is still on its original alternator. It slips for a few seconds when wet but who cares?

Bob Z.

 

Dennis,
You took the nut off of the right bolt. Bolt #2 should be loose in both the alternator and the casting. I have always assumed that the alternator/air pump clutch was gone from your car. If it is still there, there might be forces pushing the alternator to the side and jamming the bolt. Under any conditions, that bolt has to come out. Try the 5 ft cheater. Other bolt is the pivot for the entire casting, alternator, clutch and air pump as an assembly. You have to pull the engine or the right gas tank to get the whole mess out and you don't want to do that. Suggestion of getting it out from left side might work on euro cars without air pump but not here. Again luck.
John

 

I took several nice shots of my disassembled alternator housing for you but the chord from the camera is missing! In any case your bolt #2 is the only one holding the alternator to the waffle cannister. It is about 5" long the bolt #1 that you refer to is a longer bolt & holds the cannister to the mount that attaches to the side of the block. It is not necessary to undo bolt #1 at this time. However bolt #2 is the one (and only one) holding the alternator to the cannister (since you have removed the top bolt already). If you did take bolt #1 out it is a long bolt but then the altenator must STILL be attached to the cannister. In a poorly described sense think of an "L" the vertical part of the "L" was attached to the block. The lower horizontal part of the "L" was attached to the alternator. If you took of bolt #1 then you have detached the cannister (along with the alternator still attached) from the block. It may give you more room to maneuver but you have to get bolt #2 off. I have been absolutely amazed at how PB blaster (thats the name of it) works as a solvent to free bolts etc. Spray some on the bolt & let it sit for a while...works wonders! I just used to use wd 40 which does not work nearly as well. The reason why you may be having problems is that the bolts are steel and the cannister housing is aluminum & corrosion gets in there & it gets locked up. So in short...if the bolt that you removed is longer than 4 or 5" than you pulled the wrong one (not a big deal). You are very close to having this done so stay with it. If my son calls me back (likely cord stealer) I will email you the pics of mine which will make it very clear. I am happy to help you, please email me & i'll send you my tel#. Good luck & don't give up!!

 

well you will see what I mean if when you go to rotate the alternator and the cannister rotates with it. If it does so (and I think it will) you will see that you have detached the cannister from the block but that the cannister is still attached to the alternator. More easily said...if you can rotate the alternator independently of the cannister then you are all set. It is hard to get at the lower alternator bolt #2 especially if it is stuck because the cannister has a cut out of about 1.5" that would allow a wrench in there. Also you have to force the bolt forward to get it out. So in short if the bolt is longer than 5" then it is the wrong one. If you can get that PB blaster (Auto zone sells it) then spray the rear of bolt #2 and the front part & wait until tomorrow. Then take a drift & gently tap it out (dont bang the threads). Between you calling me & me sending you the pics (i'll buy another chord tomorrow) you will see it & get it!!

 

Dennis - look at these pics & it will show you what I mean. You can see the longer bolt #1 in your post merely holds the alt to the cannister. Please call me if you have any more questions.
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I meant the longer bolt merely holds the cannister to the bracket that holds it to the block. SO #2 bolt in your picture holds the alternator to the cannister & must come out.

 

Dennis If you think that you have the alternator cleaned up and ready to go - then why not? However, I would strongly urge you to really clean up the waffle cannister mounts & maybe file down the bolts that go into them. I would put them in & out several times until they are really free to move around. It wont take much to put it back together from this point & if it still doesnt work you will be able to take the alternator back out in about a 1/4 of the time (maybe less). I see that you still have your heat shielding on the lower exhaust manifold which will make your alternator exit even more snug. It can be done though but maybe you dont need to. Good luck!

 

Dennis- look at post #1944 by omgjon today...the pics will show you exactly what the euro alternator setup is like. In this pic you see the euro bracket, a modern alternator, euro oil exchange bracket & the gas tank cut out. The challenge with this is that it uses a different belt than the Gates Polyflex one on our cars. The crank pulley has the euro groove on it and this is due to the fact that he has pulled the AC and doesnt need that groove on the crank pulley. It is a cleaner/easier and I think more reliable set up than the Magnetti that came on ours. This can be modified but as previously explained requires a different pulley to use the Gates belt(which imho is easier than changing the crank pulley). If you elect to go this way let me know as there are 1 or 2 other steps that you need to do. If you can clean your alternator up & fix it without removing it ...so much the better!

 

Dennis,
You really have had a mess. Looks like nothing is really broke other than oily and worn brushes. Your picture of the brush holder shows lots of wear and really lots on the right. Take that brush holder to an alternator shop and ask them for two new brushes. I believe they will be significantly longer than what you have now. Use the new ones! Oil does a pair of bad things. It speeds erosion of the carbon and then takes the carbon powder mixed with oil and glues the brushes to the guides. Brushes then don't slide easily, brushes arc,wear and situation gets worse. When you put brush holder back, check ohms from field terminal to ground while you turn alternator shaft. It should be an ohm or so (less than 5) and stay low.

Don't know what the 3rd top screw was on alternator. What did it screw into? Lots of ways mechanics have removed clutches and air pumps. Mine is rigged so that your last photo bolt #1 locks the aluminum casting to the engine and is no longer the pivot for the alternator/clutch/pump. Bolt #2 was made a loose fit in both alternator and casting and is now the pivot and structural support for the alternator. I just take the top link screw out, take the bottom alternator screw out and the alternator is loose.

If there is no relief in the right gas tank, you can't get the alternator out without pulling the tank. From where you are now, best to clean, get new brushes and go. Changing alternator, etc. is something to worry about when you have to pull the engine. Nothing wrong with original if you take a little care. Mine has gone 193,500 miles and is still going strong. Again, good luck.
John

 

Today's Dino Saga 080120 might help in the future. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182669
Wish I had done this a week or two ago. Unfortunately you get smarter later.
John