Hi Guys, What's the behaviour of your headlights and flashers? When at a stop light and just idling, my turn signal blinker is slow until I rev the engine. My headlights are very dim until I rev the engine. Is this normal for Dinos? My shop says it is. I've just had a new alternator with upgraded internals put into the car as well as a new voltage regulator. I was expecting normal lighting behaviour as with any other car. Thanks, Manny
I have an astounding lack of electrical knowledge but I would double check all the ground wires fastened to the frame with a nut. Make sure you are getting a good connection to the frame.
YUP. Normal 55 amps +- does not get you very far electrically. I think that's all that alternator puts out. The friggin cooling fans draw 20 amps, so that doesn't leave a lot for the rest of your electrics. Turn on the radio, power down a window or turn on the A/C and see what your lights or turn signals do. only solution is to up the ante on the alternator, which I believe is available as an aftermarket part, but, it won't look original. DM
I dont know why you bother with a radio, you cant hear anything in that cockpit. Not that there is anything else to hear except the glorious noise behind your ears
Yes, this is exactly what Dinos normally do and how they act. My turn signals operate the same as yours; poorly and slowly until higher revs and I have all original electrics.
Thanks for the replies guys. The shop told me my alternator was bad so I took the opportunity to upgrade it. I would think that the upgrade would have alleviated any of these issues. But instead, it caused more issues. At the time they upgraded my alternator, they also replaced my aftermarket voltage regulator with a period correct regulator. This worked fine the few minutes while the car idled at the shop. But 5 minutes out on the road, the gauge would show a discharge. We eventually found an aftermarket regulator that supposedly works. But then I noticed what I mentioned above about the lights. I was a bit disappointed. Also, my car idles at around 800rpm. I say around because in the morning, I can see the tach reading almost zero but the idle is smooth. But I rev her up and she kinda settles at around 800. I notice that if I keep my foot on the gas to set the idle at 1100, my ammeter reads zero...no discharge. But at 800, it's negative. What are you guys idling at? Does all this behaviour sound familiar? Thanks again, Manny
My car does the exact same thing, I have changed the v. regulator and put in a aftermarket one which seemed to help the voltage from going up to 17volts with the higher revs but still discharges at idle I also had the alt. rebuilt with no luck. I haven't given up yet. I can't believe they would build a car that would discharge at idle, what would be the point.
The point would be, DON'T KEEP THE CAR AT IDLE. DRIVE THE BUGGER!! I guess the folks at Ferrari never figured the car would sit still for more than a minute of so. DM
Dinos aren't meant to idle, heck it doesn't have much torque until you get it past 2000 Rpm. The engine is a real rev'er but the bottom end hasn't got a lot to it.
Please refresh my memory of automotive charging systems. Now that I'm working 7 day weeks, I can't remember my own name. When a car starts, it uses the battery. Once the engine is running, the alternator sees a low battery and recharges the battery. But at the same time, the alternator runs all electrical systems. Right? When I spoke with my shop, it sounded like it was the reverse on the Dino. They said, the battery is running the electrical system. And when the alternator sees a low battery, then it recharges the battery. But only after it drops past a certain point. I guess when the headlights dim and the blinkers slow, it hasn't reached that point yet. Plus the engine isn't more than idle so nothing from the alternator. If I'm right on both counts, then all that's needed is to convert the system so that the alternator runs the electrical system. How hard can that be?
The alternator needs to spin at a certain minimum rpm before it can start to produce eletricity. It will also start to come apart if spun too fast. It has to be geared, via pulley sizes, to the crank so that at engine redline the alt. won't self-destruct. When safely geared for a 7-8000 rpm engine you end up with a very slow turning alt. at an 800 rpm idle. It won't spin fast enough to generate electricity until 1000 or more engine rpm. Until that point the battery has to supply all the current. Any resistance (dirty grounds, etc.) at electrical connections only aggravates the problem. A weak or old battery that doesn't maintain a high voltage on it's own doesn't help either. I usually set my warm idle to 1000-1100 rpm to help the electrical system and maintain a higher oil pressure. A good cleaning of all the ground connections, including the chassis end of the neg battery cable, can sometimes make a big difference.
F-Chatters - I have read this, and the previous thread concerning charging and alternators, and perceive a general misunderstanding of automotive electrical systems. I know a little about a lot, but undergraduate and graduate training in electrical engineering has taught me a lot about a little. Allow me... The primary source of electrical energy (Watts) used by all of the devices in your car is the battery. It acts like a reservoir. To demonstrate this simple but basic fact, your car, electric windows, radio, ignition, brakes, lights, etc., will work without the alternator functioning (as when the belt comes off or breaks). Let me qualify...all these items will work for a period of time defined by the ampere-hour rating of the battery and the amperes being drawn. As electric devices draw energy from the battery, like a water reservoir, it will empty. Absent a source of energy to fill the reservoir, you will soon be dead on the road. Enter the alternator. The alternator provides the sole source of energy to recharge the battery. This device generates ELECTRIC CURRENT, not voltage. It operates through the beautiful principle that when a wire passes through a magnetic field, current is produced. An alternator has two wires connected to it. One wire - the field current - does exactly what its name implies. It provides current to an electromagnet that creates a magnetic field. The strength of the magnetic field is a function of the field current. The higher the field current, the stronger the magnetic field. The armature is a spinning shaft of wound wire - a coil that is passed through this magnetic field. The current produced is a function of the number of magnetic flux lines crossed per unit time. Thus, the stronger the magnetic field, the greater the number of windings, and the faster the device spins all will result in greater current generation. Now, with this background, here is where a great deal of confusion seems to arise. The output of the alternator - the other wire - leads through the ampere meter to the battery. The battery has internal resistance. When current generated by the alternator flows into the battery, the current multiplied by internal resistance generates a voltage, which is the main bus voltage. Thus, it is the current and resistance of the battery that leads to bus voltage, NOT the alternator. If the battery is charged with too much current, damage will arise. Thus, there must be a means of limited the charging current. Enter the regulator. The regulator is fundamentally designed to regulate charging current. Because it is difficult to measure current directly, but easy to measure voltage, the regulator measures bus voltage, and assumes that for automotive batteries, 12 volts nominal is about where you want to be. Thus, as the bus voltage drops due to load (lights, etc.), the voltage regulator wakes up (in a continuous fashion, not all of a sudden) and says to itself "Wait... the bus voltage is dropping, someone is drawing energy from the battery. Maybe I should start putting energy back into the battery. I'm going to increase the field current to nudge the alternator into generating more current to charge the battery." Thus, the regulator acts as a feedback control device...as bus voltage goes down, field current goes up. Putting extra current through the battery will raise the voltage THROUGH OHMS LAW - the resistance being that of the internal plates of the battery. Thus, the bus voltage rises to 13.8, but only at RPMs sufficient to generate that current. If the battery is fully charged, the bus voltage may be 12 volts even when RPMs exceed 2000. It all depends on what the regulator sees as bus voltage. A common problem with the Dino is 1) the length of the field current wire, 2) the contact resistance at the firewall fuse. The regulator may sense a low bus voltage, but when it generates field current that must traverse 10 feet and suffer the resistance of the firewall fuse contacts, the voltage created by these resistances may result in lower current to the field (complicated concept - sorry for this). Lots of hot air here - bear with me please. The charging current should result in a max bus voltage of 13.8 (this must be verified). An important principle is that the sensitive component in all this, that is, what is asking for a max of 13.8, is the battery. Too much charging current will hurt the battery. Remember, while I mixed current and voltage in the same sentence, 13.8 volts will be generated by the correct amount of current passing through the plates of a properly functioning battery (our friend Ohm rearing his head again). The best way to determine if the regulator is functioning properly is to measure the voltage of the field wire - either at the regulator (F-tab) or at the alternator. As the RPMs rise, the field current (measured as voltage through the alternator coil resistance) should drop. As RPMs drop, and one turns on lights and fans, the field voltage should go up. REMEMBER, field voltage, as measured at the field tab of the regulator or at the alternator, is really a current output of the regulator creating a voltage as it passes through the coil of the spinning alternator. It has nothing to do with bus voltage - it merely excites the electromagnet. If anyone has read down this far, and is interested in additional discussion, I will be happy to provide more. If the consensus is that I am way over the top and boring the masses, then nough said. Jim S.
Would it be an improvement to run a larger guage of wire over that 10' distance and is there a way to improve that bulkhead fuse. The terminals on that fuse block seem to melt over time.
Racerboy - in theory, yes, a larger diameter wire (smaller gauge number) would help. However, the wiring loom has the correct diameter wire. I periodically remove the bulk head fuses and using sandpaper, clean the contacts and the ends of the fuse. If the lights are dimming when other equipment is turned on, then the culprit is typically the battery. It simply has lost the capacity to provide the necessary current. This, of course, assumes that the battery is properly charged. If the charging voltage is 13.8 or so when the engine is turning 2000 RPM, then this is evidence that 1) the field current (regulator) is doing what it is suppose to do and 2) the alternator is capable of putting out the necessary current when asked to. Further evidence would be obtained if the field voltage (see my earlier post) tends to drift down after a few moments (15-30 seconds) of revving the engine, as this implies that current entering the battery is creating rising bus voltage as the battery plates move electrons around. This rising bus voltage feeds back to the regulator and it lowers the field voltage. A minimal discharge at the ampere meter at idle without any load other than fuel pumps and ignition (no lights or radiator fans, for example) is likely normal. When radiator fans kick on, the discharge at idle can be 10 amperes or more. When RPM is brought to 1500 to 2000, the charge should be positive. The longer the discharge, the greater the positive charge when the RPMs are first raised. This would suggest to me that everything is working as designed. Increasing alternator capacity is a warm and fuzzy thing. Makes everyone feel better, but the standard 55 amperes of the Dino should be sufficient. Imagine the following: At steady state, when traveling down the road in 5th gear at 40 mph, in the evening, when its raining, with the radiator fans going, and the heater fans going, and the brights on, and the radio on, while reading a map with the interior lights on, I do not believe you are drawing 55 amps. If you were to draw more than 55 amps, at steady state for several hours, and the alternator did not charge the battery with 55 amps, then the battery would eventually discharge. The lights would eventually dim, as would the life of the car. Other than this scenario, providing more alternator output, say 80 amps, merely means that for the short period of charging after starting the car (for example), you could get your battery back to full charge in 10 seconds instead of maybe 20 seconds. Not worth the effort. In addition, unless the brushes are increased in size (not merely more coils wound), the current density through the brushes will create more heat and premature arching and failure. The take home lesson - clean all of your contacts in your 30-year-old cars. I hear all this talk about bad grounds. Perhaps. Nothing wrong with taking a piece of sandpaper or wire brush to the chassis contact points. But clean all tab male connectors, and spray the female tab connectors with contact cleaner. Clean the ends of the fuses and fuse holder copper tabs. Lots of heat generated from these suckers, which implies loss energy, high resistance, lower voltage to the load, and general malaise. Jim S.
Thanks for the reply. Would applying electrical contact grease to the contacts after cleaning them be the way to go to keep them from going bad. Noalox is one such product made for this purpose.
Been there, done both, and it ain't pretty in a Dino. This is not your father's Oldsmobile. It's hot, it's noisy and it's no fun at all. But you knew that, right?
I don't live in the city but last year I did get stuck in an ugly traffic jam that left me moving at a snails pace for about an hour
Drove my Dino for 3 hours had a great time and washed it thoroughly upon my return. Water definitely hit the engine vents and the trays beneath them. I ran it for 20 minutes for final dry off and parked it. Drove it the next evening and within 20 miles the lights went dim but the car still ran smoothly at highway speed. Quickly returned to home and parked it, battery has taken a day on trickle charge and is still taking it. Additional info - may not be important - No fuses blown in the fuse boxes - I have been tracing down an intermittent short in the dash lights/marker lights/ashtray circuit (fuse position #5 from front of car) that only seems to occur when I go over LARGE speedbumps briskly. I was diagnosing this on the drive and I had removed two of the wires from the fuse box connection to isolate them and electrically taped them to prevent shorting. - Last month I replaced the alternator field fuse box so I know those connections are good. Any ideas on diagnosis are welcome, I'll be checking everything this weekend.
My Dino idles at 1000, starts charging at 1500 and doesn't hit 40 amps until 3000. I use a 3 terminal regulator originally for Chrysler. Pep Boys special. A good battery will put out 11.5-12 volts with engine off, lights on. If it does not, terminals are dirty, connections are bad somewhere or battery is bad. When alternator comes on line, voltage goes up to 13.8-14 volts, no higher. Battery charges at whatever current alternator puts out. If voltage goes higher, bad connection to battery and/or bad regulator. Normal for some turn signal flashers to change speed going from 12 to 14 volts as alternator comes up. Some don't. Don't know why. Turn on lights. Measure voltage at battery (directly on posts, not on leads) and at fuse panel. There should be no difference. Good luck, John
Unless you've got a well-modded (spelling?) Dino, everything moves slow at idle. I'm lucky if my turn signals fire more than once every 2 or 3 seconds at idle, but the instant I give it some gas, well ....
