I had this exact same break on a float strut in a 40 DCOE in an Alfa. I was a remarkably poor student at the time, and was able to fix it using the piece that broke off and a squeeze tube of JB weld. Never gave a problem again. Lord knows I wouldn't do that again, though. KIDS = DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!
Which spacer are we talking about ? I had to "guess" my ignition when I purchased my car as the weights were welded wide open, I think the idiot that owned my car 15 years ago was trying to track it and make it run wide-open all the time. Anyway, I purchased new weights and springs from superformance and of course the springs were too tight and I had no advance at all, I guessed it up by playing with the springs and the car is running pretty darn good. I have only spring per weight now which I know is wrong. This winter, I am pulling the 206 motor due to low compression and burning oil and have a friend with a ancient distributor machine who has said if I drive up (300 miles) I can use his machine to properly set my distributor. Are you talking about the phenolic spacer on the shaft that the weights rest on at low RPM
How bad is your oil consumption? I drive my car 30 minutes daily and my dip stick go down from max to min in about a month, is that still acceptable?
Most Ferrari engines, especially pre-modern era ones, display significant oil consumption as compared to current standards. This is mainly due to the fact that the clearances in these engines are roughly double those of "normal" engines. So some oil consumption is normal. You would have to express the quantity of oil consummed by 1000Km or something to get figures that can be compared to what is considered normal i.e. 3-5lt per 1000Km. If your consumption is above these figures then you should either: - Change your oil brand and viscosity. Never use fully synthetic oils or oils of too low viscosity grade. A good old mineral 15-40 will do great and I think Quaker State have some great products in this range but basically anyone will do. - Measure compression ratio or blow-by (leak-down) values to verify your engine is in good condition and that your excessive oil consumption is not caused by engine wear
on this one I agree with Stratos, oil consumption should be measured by mileage not by 30minutes per day and once a month and I am low. I am burning roughly a quart of oil per 400 miles, all my other Italian cars have always been 1 quart per thousand or more miles, so this one is worn out. Running Castrol 20-50GTX and it smokes also sometimes. Not smoking consistenly though The #6 cylinder is the culprit of the smoke, that cylinder fouls its plug pretty quick in traffic and is also the lowest compression by far of all the other cylinders. #1 thru 5 have pretty even compression of around 150-155lbs. and #6 has 95lbs. Odometer has a 30,000km's on it but I assume it is 130km so that would be around 80,000 miles and from the looks of it, it is 80,000 abused miles. Still driving the daylights out of it though, driving it nearly everyday until I pull the motor in late Jan, early Feb. (the rainy season in S. Calif.)
I don't know, I have not seen his machine, he got it from a FIAT/Lancia dealer that closed up shop in the late 70's. He says it will work for the Dino distributor but I have not seen it. I am looking forward to taking my distributor up there, both to get it right and to see how close I was with just trial and error.
Dumb question, but if you know the advance you want in say 1000 RPM increments, why not just do it on the car with a timing light? I can see if the distributor is in a hidden place this may be impractical, but you can probably get very close with 3-4 trial and error tries using different springs. It will be easier than a 300 mile drive. Ken
Ken I don't know all of the ins and outs here, but, my Dino distributor has two sets of points, which my mechanic has carefully fashioned hand made tools to adjust. The US Spec has a microswitch to advance timing, the eurospec does not. My distributor has three lobes on it's cam, and rotates at half engine spped. The points must be exactly 180 degrees apart to work properly. And don't forget that the timing advance 30 degrees off idle. My mechanic explained how carefully he bends the points in order ot make it all go smoothly, and that the "machine" (His is also ancient) mystifies some of the young pups but is absolutely the only way to dial in the distributor properly. I'll try to get some additional information out of him on my next visit. I'm sure one of you guys can explain the exact function of the two weghts within the distributor. DM
Ken, that is what I did when I put it together, a friend and I played with the springs until we got the advance we needed with the timing light at various revs. It works great and seems right but I want to put it on a machine to confirm it or get it right when i rebuild the motor. My car was converted to a MSD and optical point system so I no longer have the dual points. The optical trigger seems to work wonders. Dave, the weights in the distributor change the timing as the revolutions go up/down. There a 2 springs per weight keeping the weight away from the outer edge for idling and low RPMs, as the RPMs climb the weights get pushed out to the outer edge by centrifugal force. One end of the weights is attached to the shaft with the lobes so as the weights move the lobes move causing advance in the timing. I have pictures of my distributor as it was in many pieces if it helps and they might make more sense then my babbling but basically the main shaft is in 2 pieces, the bottom with the bearings, the top with the lobes and the points get open/closed by the lobes so as the lobes move the timing changes.
I have the same opinon: putting your distributor on a machine that can show you if the two sets of points are exactly 180 degrees from each other so that you will get spark distributed at the right time. If they are off, then the spark will be coming early on some cylinders and late on others and...what a mess. I had a friend who used to work in a well-known restoration shop in Berkeley and he called in a favor for me and they put my distributor on their machine (one of those beautiful old Sun machines if my memory is correct) for the fine tuning. I drove home and put it back on the car and the difference was like night and day. No more stumbles, no more popping of unburnt fuel in the exaust etc.... BTW, does anyone remember the Ferrari Chat member (a few years ago) that was building replacement distributors for the 308s that were modern optical sensor type distributors that he would modify the shaft and casing or whatever to mate up with the 308 engine but they would use standard 8cyl distributor caps that of course cost a lot less than the marelli ones we have to buy for our distributors. I think the whole set up was like $400 or something. Does that ring a bell with anyone here? I believe he made at least one distributor for the Dino engine as well, and a friend of mine was setting it up on a customers car. I never heard how it worked out but it's an interesting option for those that want the best daily performance out of their Dinos.
dmnstuff. Originally, ALL Dino's had two sets of points inside, but they get changed for a number of reasons. It's the number of lobes on the dizzy shaft that determine your spec. If you have 6 lobes, one set of points was mounted on insulator blocks and originally grounded out by the throttle switch when closed, which retarded the timing for cleaner emmissions and less overun burbling. The other set of points was used the moment you open the throttle, and runs a little more advanced for general use. If you have 3 lobes on your dizzy shaft, you should not have a throttle switch, as both sets are phased to operate as one. this gives a longer dwell for a better spark and more efficiency....at the expense of emmissions and noise on overun. Often, the cars get messed around with and end up with perhaps both a 3 lobes dizzy AND a throttle switch (on the carb idle screw), most commonly with the throttle switch disconnected as it is a clumsy and inaccurate system. Basically though, on a 3 lobe Dizzy, get the dwell (points gap) and phasing between points sets correct (you can check this with a timing light if you have no machine, but it takes more time to keep re-setting if out), and then set the static timing to 18 BTDC and the Max to 38-40 at 5000rpm using the std advance curve and it'll be sweet. The same rules apply to 6 lobe dizzies, but they have less dwell and the points have to work harder so generally last less time without attention. If your mechanic can't work out how to raise the static timing without over advancing or upsetting the std advance curve, take it elsewhere!
30? whoa. i would have though 10-15, maaaybe 20 on idle. any more than that and it's hard to imagine it running smooth at lower revs, lots of carb spits and a jerky motor.
Phil. Excellent!!! I'll run this by the mechanic on Monday. We've switched to a three lobe, euro spec distributor. Pre- '73 in PS, or those cars with classic plates, do not have to meet emissions standards. Isn't the US distributor a 6-lobe and Euro a 3? Thanks for the tip, we'll see where we get!! DM
I think I may have made myself unclear. It is my understanding that idle is about 6-8 degrees, and that the advance can be up to 30 degrees. That the US car uses a microswitch to get the advance correct, and that Euro spec handle it completely through the distributor. Initial static advance - 6 degrees Centrifugal automatic advance - 30 degrees +- 2 degrees maximum ignition timing 36 degrees +- 1 degree including the 6 degrees of fixed initial advance Is that any clearer?
I'm not sure if there is a black and white answer to which spec is which. It depends on model, year, country, and I suspect.... the guy that built it, how close to lunch time it was and which was nearest to his hand on the production line!! Suffice to say, the 6 lobe is fine too, you just need to keep on top of servicing of the points a little more. I'd not worry about changing the dizzy if you don't need to. They both do the job.
There are three types of 6 cylinder Dino distributors that I am aware of : 206 Dino: S125 AX-15 246 Dino: S125 BX-15 246 Dino USA: S125C The advance curves for the first two are identical to each other. The USA distributor advances less than the others until engine reaches 2000rpm, and then after that the curve is identical to the first two. All three distributors have a total mechanical advance of 15 degrees of distributor advance (hence the 15 suffix on the ID number), this equals to 30 degrees of crankshaft advance. The USA distributor has two sets of points that are set with dwells that are different from each other by 5.5 degrees. This causes one set of points to be retarded 5.5 distributor degrees (11 crankshaft degrees) from the other. The throttle microswitch controls which set of points is being used. The initial static advance on the 206 Dino is 10 degrees BTDC, which is why all of the timing pointers have a 10 degree mark on them. This combined with the 30 degrees of mechanical advance gives a total advance of 40 degrees. The initial static advance on the 246 Dino is 6 degrees BTDC. This combined with the 30 degrees of mechanical advance gives a total advance of 36 degrees. The initial static advance on the 246 USA Dino is 2 degrees ATDC (or -2 degrees) when on the retard set of points. The initial static advance on the advance set of points is 9 degrees BTDC. This combined with the 30 degrees of mechanical advance gives a total advance of 39 degrees. If the microswitch is eliminated and the engine is run on the advanced set of points, then the advance is basically the same as a non-USA spec car. The advantages of the 3-lobe european distributor being more dwell time (better spark) and less wear on the points (being opened 1/2 the number of times as on the 6-lobe distributor). The advance curve of the distributor is controlled by the weights and springs/spring shims. The total advance of the distributor is dictated by how much travel the weights have. The spacer that Phil is talking about is a black rubber/plastic tube around the shaft that the weights rest against. If this spacer is larger than stock, then the total amount of mechanical advance is reduced without changing the advance curve at higher rpm. For some reason (horizontal mounting orientation, higher operating rpm, lack of maintenance) Dino distributors seem to wear at a much higher rate than V12 distributors. I have seen weights, pivot pins, bushings and cam plates that were just destroyed from wear on Dino distributors. So make sure that your advance mechanism is cleaned and well lubricated. Brian Brown Patrick Ottis Co.
Great info Patrick. FYI, all Fiat Dinos (unless modified) have the three lobe distributor. Something to keep in mind when buying used parts on Ebay where sellers like to market the same parts for both cars and this is one case where they really shouldn't do so.
