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Dino engine rebuild resource

Discussion in '206/246' started by gregory1p, Apr 10, 2017.

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  1. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
    9
    Raleigh, NC
    #1 gregory1p, Apr 10, 2017
    I'm in the process of rebuilding a fiat Dino 2000 motor and wanted to see if there was anyone out there that is familiar with these engines that I could contact for some questions. Any contact info would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    #2 dgt, Apr 10, 2017
    Sure, ask them here and there's quite a few who know these engines well.
    Where are you located?
     
  3. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
    9
    Raleigh, NC
    #3 gregory1p, Apr 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'm in the Raleigh North Carolina area. Is it better to ask in this section of the forum or another area to get the best response? Regarding the engine I have new standard size bearings from Super Performance and measured them and my connecting rod bearing clearances were good ~ 0.003". I assembled the bottom end of the motor, but then when torquing the last rod bolt I noticed a crack on the outside of the water jacket. I ended up taking the motor back apart to have the crack welded. When I took it apart I noticed some wear on the rod bearings after being rotated over several times to torque all the rod bearings and make sure everything rotated freely. Bearings were lubed during assembly. The wear is next to the locating tang on the outside edge and on the opposite side of the bearing. The bearings shells measure 0.0675" in thickness except this tang area, where they measure between 0.0695" and 0.0715" in thickness. This means the bearings are 0.002" - 0.004" inches thicker in this area, which takes up my 0.003" bearing to crank clearance. On the opposite side of the bearing from the tang there is also noticeable wear, which appears to be from the reduced clearance due to the tang thickness on the opposite side. I measured the bearings that came out of the motor and they are a consistent thickness across the bearing surface. It appears that the new bearings are low quality. Are there other sources that sell a better quality bearing? I see Mr. Fiat sells bearings with the same part number and it says "Original Vanderwell high quality slide bearings" whereas Super Performance says made to vandervell VP2 specifications. I haven't contacted Super Performance yet, just finished taking measurements and getting my facts straight. I wanted to see if there was anyone on the forum that has experience with these motors and what their thoughts were. Thanks for the Help,
    Greg
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  4. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
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    #4 gregory1p, Apr 11, 2017
    Response from Mr. Fiat "our bearings are not the same brand. They fit perfect and are high end quality."
     
  5. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    #5 dgt, Apr 11, 2017
    I didn't have this issue last year when rebuilding a 2.4l engine however I'll check the brand of bearings supplied by superformance. I seem to recall they just came shrink wrapped?
    It sounds like a bad batch, no quality control.
     
  6. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
    9
    Raleigh, NC
    #6 gregory1p, Apr 12, 2017
    Yeah, they came in a plain box don't think they were shrink wrapped, believe they were just loose. There was no brand identification on them or the box.
     
  7. racerboy9

    racerboy9 F1 Rookie
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    #7 racerboy9, Apr 12, 2017
    I'd hunt down Vandervell bearings!
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #8 Rifledriver, Apr 12, 2017
    Rod bearings should taper off and be thinner at the ends to the tune of a couple of thousandths. Bearings should have a manufacturer mark on the back if you know what the different marks look like. Were they measured with a ball mic? Also typically good bearings will have a circumferential line where they were measured by QA. Those do not and I guess based on your experience it should come as no surprise.

    Looks to me like you have some brand x 3rd world product. If you can get Vandervels for the motor I don't know what you are waiting for. Return that junk and get the good ones.
     
  9. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    #9 Telaio, Apr 12, 2017
    Hi Team, just to let you know that we have used Superformance bearings in an F40 motor and they withstood 728 Bhp for extended periods, hope this helps, cheers all, Kev.
     
  10. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
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    #10 gregory1p, Apr 12, 2017
    Superperformance says theirs are made to Vandervell specification, but Mr. Fiat says theirs are Vandervell. Need to call Superperformance about them.
     
  11. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

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    #11 gregory1p, Apr 12, 2017
    They weren't measured with a ball mic, but for the issue I'm having a set of calipers has a thin enough blade to evaluate the difference and confirm that the visual wear next to the tang is from it being thicker.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #12 Rifledriver, Apr 12, 2017
    I get it but a ball mic is really the only consistent or accurate way to measure one.

    Return them and get the Vandervells.

    It matters not what spec they are made to when the manufacturing process is so bad and QA is obviously so non existent.
     
  13. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #13 Dave rocks, Apr 12, 2017
    Agreed. The purpose of a ball mic is dot contact area given these are curved. But, as you state, thin blade calipers, given the diameter of these bearings, are sufficient to pick up the inconsistency in cross section you note. Heck, I can see it visually from the photos you posted :)

    In my shop we have a variety of measuring tools for different applications.
     
  14. dino clay

    dino clay Karting

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    #14 dino clay, Apr 13, 2017
    you bought those bearings in Great Britain and you are looking at a manufacturing error. You have to your bearings some where else.I have had the same problem. Beware of welding blocks, especially cast iron. That is a real art to weld cast iron. If your block is Al, no problem for a good welder. I built over 4000 motors in my career but I am on the west coast and retired. You may phone me any time but I am out of the country until the end of next month.

    clay
     
  15. rossnzwpi

    rossnzwpi Rookie

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    #15 rossnzwpi, Jun 24, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Greg and welcome to the Dino engine rebuild game. I've been working on mine for a couple of decades:)
    There are a couple of resources to link to - one is Fiat Dino Forum (FDF) ? Index page and the other is the older Yahoo Fiat Dino group at : https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/fiatdino/info

    In the files folder there you will find an engine rebuild manual. PM me if you can't access it. The Fiat Dino engine is almost identical to the "Ferrari 206" engine but there are a couple of differences besides one being transverse with gearbox-in-sump and the other being longitudinal with a sump. One thing that springs to mind is the balance. The FIAT version has a different flywheel with external balancing.https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2409043&stc=1&d=1498361133

    cheers
    Ross
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  16. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
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    #16 gregory1p, Jul 22, 2017
    Thanks for all the responses. Well I finally got the bearings sorted out with the fourth set. Got two sets from Superformance that had the defects stated above. Then ordered a set from Mr. Fiat. The first set measured correctly and didn't have the same issues as the Superformance ones, but they were packed rather loosely in the box and beat themselves against each other, so were not usable. I sent them pictures and they sent me out another set that were packaged well and no issues. I now have the bottom end together again after a few months of waiting on bearings.

    Next question, I'm putting the heads back on, do I put the head gaskets on dry, or is it recommended to add some sort of sealant around the various water passages and head studs? The lower studs have some discoloration on them from what looks like coolant leaking around them over the years.
     
  17. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    #17 dgt, Jul 22, 2017
    Glad to hear the bearings were sorted out.
    Which head gaskets are you using?
    I was advised by others the dinoparts.de rienz gaskets work well and had no issues.
    I don't use any sealers but have known others that do with other brands.
    Are you re-using the old head studs and are they still in the block?
     
  18. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
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    Raleigh, NC
    #18 gregory1p, Jul 23, 2017
    The gaskets are the Spesso ones from Superformance. I'm using the original head studs and they have not been removed from the block. The main reason that I took the motor apart was to have the rotating assembly balanced, since I am not using the original flywheel. I've made an adapter and flywheel to attach the motor to a Porsche 914 transaxle. The drivetrain is going into a hand built Ferrari 206, so not mated to the original trans.
     
  19. gregory1p

    gregory1p Rookie

    Jun 25, 2012
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    #19 gregory1p, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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