Discuss "rarity" vis-a-vis "collectible" cars...

2 reasons, (BTW, was once a 328 owner as well)

Only a handful of 80,000 GTO's remain in "collectible" condition, making them rare and hard to find. Also, they were symbolic of the golden age of american muscle, which will be cherished for generations to come.

Most of the 4000 328's produced remain in pristine condition, which makes them not rare and easy to find. Also, the GTS is not symbolic or groundbreaking in any way. It was also produced in the 80's a rather bland era for automotive symbolism, and will be easily forgotten.

Supply and Demand is the law of pricing and value.

 

A fair enough question actually, as you have noted with full production it was only 1,500 cars a year...

Going back older it's even less......more like 1,000 or less....

I think it's the uninitiated lumping all years together.

The 712 'glass cars are now sought after.

I have two first year steels, last year of good cams, no cats......

then the 78 -79
then 80 -81 injected etc....

So really each version has it's fans....and they are probably as rare as the special Pontiacs when viewed that way...

1994 25th Anninversay 6 speed LT1 Trans Am.........1 of 128!
ONLY 148,645 miles on the odometer! LOL!
Not collectible........

 

Rarity does not equal collectability. There are lots of collectable cars where a ton were made (muscle cars in particular) and lots of really rare cars that aren't worth very much; want to buy my Europa? When's the last time you saw on on the street? Trust me, even a perfect example will not come close to your 328 in cost.

Ken

 

No, that's true...

You have to have high demand vs. low supply to really touch it off....

Two rich guys fighting over one car, is the best you'll ever do!

 

There were only 417 of my 79 308 GTB. I believe it will be the quality and visceral appeal of these cars (the 308 carbed) cars that will make the price eventually skyrocket. Hell some day people will realize that a good 308 costs less then a well optioned new Mustang.

 

IMO the only collectible 3-- Ferrari will be a 308 fibrelglass, and a your 308 carb/308 QV. These will always have classic appeal.

How about a 360 CS, collectible yes/no?

 

It's all about what's hot, not what's rare. In late 1989-early 1990, 328's were selling for 150-200K. These cycles occur in all collectibles, not just cars. Very often, however, what is red hot in one cycle never regains its former value once out of favor. A prime example would be a 1950-D nickel which was worth $25 and more in 1964. Today they are $10 and that's after more than doubling the last few years. 328's may never be 6 figure cars again, at least in my lifetime, so I guess I'll just keep driving mine.

Dave

 

i forgot where i read it but collectible cars are always rare but rare cars aren't always collectible. as far as the gto goes, i doubt only a handful are in collectible shape. in fact, i bet it's in the 10's of thousands. there is one thing driving the muscle car market. rich baby boomers. they will get tired of them in ten years when they are 60-70. and our kids will have many to choose from. the ferrari really is a niche car. it's maint costs are prohibitive. i doubt the 328's will go anywhere but up.

 

I wouldn't recommend any of these cars as short-term investments, but here goes:

1. Ultimately, the whole 308/328 series is very rare compared to newer Ferraris and certainly to newer cars. You can drive for months here in southern California (car capital of the U.S., maybe the world) without seeing a 308/328, and there aren't multiple nice ones sitting around dealers. They are "common" compared to things like a 212, 288GTO and other Pebble Beach and museum cars, but consider dirt common cars like Corvettes and Porsche 911s and the 308/328 series is an out of the way car.

2. Say there are 4000 great 328s left. The population of prospective buyers is growing, and as long as guys have disposable income and great roads, five-figure Ferrari's will be in demand. There's also some acknowledgement that the 328 still looks "right". I'd say 328s will always be in demand even if the supply isn't decreasing.

3. Ferrari's have a somewhat deserved reputation for being heinously expensive to maintain. The jury is out on the 360/F430 because they're newer, but the 328 is emerging as the only "sensible" (relatively speaking...) Ferrari for someone who doesn't want to get financially killed by his mechanic. I think this will contribute to demand. When I started looking, I considered 308s, 328s, 348s and 355s. I knew very little about Ferrari ownership. The reputation of the 328 -- literally everyone I asked said to go with that model -- will encourage people to buy it. People have commented about the electronics and complexity of the modern Ferraris, and I tend to agree that a 2006 car is going to be heartache in 2026 when your obsolete nav system flickers and dies. For a Ferrari with minimum pain, the 328 gets the nod (the 308 being next). In fact, there aren't many options.

4. The transition from 'old used car' to 'classic' is happening, albeit slowly. People no longer shop 328s for performance. They like the looks, they like the simplicity, they want to drive an icon. That attracts a different kind of shopper than someone trying to get into a Ferrari but without the bucks to get into the showroom for a new F430 who has to "settle" for an F355.

5. Final point: just finished reading a Karl Brauer column on Edmunds about some new Chevy SUV (Tahoe?) that stickered at $50K. Fifty thousand bucks for what I think we'd all agree is a mass-produced, kid-and-gear-toting, disposable depreciation bomb of a truck. As prices rise in general, that tide should buoy classic Ferrari prices as well. I know that when I was shopping I had a new Boxster S (similar hp) or lightly used 911 cab in the back of my mind; and in my mind spending the same money for a nice, former show-winning 328 was just far more exciting. If the 328 had been $100K, I probably would have viewed the whole equation differently, car preferences aside. If anything, top-notch 328s are underpriced right now. I'm reluctant to call any Ferrari an "absolute no-brainer buy-it-now bargain", but if there is such a thing the 328 is it.

I'd guess it will be another decade before 328 prices head north, and then not by enough to recover those major service costs, sales tax, etc. etc. But it's already a collectible car. Once you use it up, it's gone, and it may take more money to replace it.

If you take a look at another widely recognized car, the Porsche Speedsters (approx 4000 made), you'll see they've got a cult following now and any car under $100K is likely in boxes. The other open 356's are also trending up (coupes remain cheap). Performance on all of these cars is miserable, but they're icons of the '50s and '60s like the 308/328 is an icon of the '80s. Give it time.

 

Mondial T-Coupe:

There were 42 made for the U.S. (all 1989, IIRC) - easily one of the "rarest" modern Ferraris. Moreso than the F-anything (40, 50, etc...not the FXX), but still never as collectible.

Now, if you happened to be in the market for a cherry T-coupe with a certain color combination, and the seller of the very car you want happens to know how bad you want HIS car, that Mondial all of the sudden becomes *very* "collectible" to him, as the seller, in the interest of fetching top-dollar from you!

 

Of the 81+thousand 67 GTO's, not only are a very few in the condition to be collectable but fewer still are optioned to be collectable.

Probably brings that number down to 308 territory or smaller. Then you have the fact that there are many more Americans looking to relive their misspent youth by buying the Muscle car they could never afford when they were 16 than all the buyers for vintage exotics.

 

To define "collectibles" simply look at "collections". The collections that I see have 288GTO's, not 308's.

 

Of course, Dino's used to be looked down on...

 

This is gonna get me flamed, but what the heck.

The reason that the 3X8 cars will never be all that collectible is that they were not particularly desirable cars in the first place. Simply put, I will take a 75-89 Porsche 911 over one of these Ferraris every day of the week. Sorry, if this hurts anyone feelings, but these years were not a good time for Ferrari. (The exception being the 288 GTO and the F40.) Why Ferrari didn't step up to the plate, we'll never know because all the pieces were there. A mid-engined V8 versus a real-engine flat 6 shoulda been a killer. Sad to say, it wasn't.

If you don't believe me, check the grid the next time you go to a vintage race. You'll see tons and tons of 911s. You hardly ever see a 3X8.

If fact, if it hadn't been for Magnum PI, the 3X8 cars would be a lost generation.

Dale

 

Not all of those old Goats are equally 'collectible'. One of the cool things re: musclecars was the number of available options. Not talking piping on the seats or stitching to sample, so much as a range of performance drivetrain options - engines, trannys, diffs. There might've been 81,722 '67 GTO's built, but only a handful with a Ram Air motor, for example. Fewer still w/a Ram Air in a ragtop. These are the sorts of cars that have seen the lion's share of appreciation - the ones we tend to hear/read about trading for surprising sums. There aren't very many.

 

Though I am no expert in what's collectable and what's not I think Rifledriver is right. The only reason that these muscle cars have been obtaining the absurd prices we're seeing is that these cars were the dream cars of the baby boomers and this demographic is at a place in thier lives where they have significant disposable income (inheritance, recent real estate boom, whatever) and can easily afford to obtain them even at bizarre inflated prices.

I feel that the 308/328 will go up for the same reasons....that generation who were in their impressionable years (say 15-21 yrs) during the Magnum years will also reach this point, in the near future, when the kids are gone, mortgage is gone or insignificant, and they are sitting on a pile of real estate equity. At that time the "classic" cars of this era will increase in value. This is not magic...the same kind of principle that record companies use when releasing "nostalgic" hit collections.

 

Sorry - few important collections have Dino's. Please understand that I love Dino's as much as my own 308

 

Not a flame, but first I think "never be collectible" is an unlikely notion. At some point, there will be fewer 308s than 288GTOs. One series is being driven hard and sold cheap, the other is in museums and estate collections. I'd agree, the middle-aged 911s are better for throwing around a track. But the 308 is a more important car.

Secondly, I'd challenge the idea that those 911s were really all that good either. Before the gearbox upgrade (G50?) in '87, they shift like junk, and the frog-face safety bumper design with the side-accordions looks awfully dated now. The late '70s through mid '80s were not a good era for Porsche at all, as they funded everything but the 911. Between the early chrome-bumpered 911s and RS, and the 993, the 911 was a durable but flawed and anti-style car. Sure, you can vintage-race it if you can control the tail in turns. But having been in an '86 a few weeks back (guy came over for a ride in my 328), I wouldn't take one over a 308 QV by any stretch.

The 308 was a pivotal car for Ferrari, and was a major influence on the design of sports cars that followed (84-06 Corvette and NSX being the obvious ones). It made the V8 the dominant Ferrari engine, with 288 GTO and F40 tracing their lineage to it. Quality as always is mediocre compared to the Germans, but frankly compared to earlier Italian exotics it was a step forward.

Many collectors don't insist on racing their cars, and the 308 will likely have its day.

I'd agree today, but 10 years from now I'd venture that important collections will have a Dino. Collectors tend to wait for something to be expensive before buying. Dinos will be there. 308/328 have a ways to go - they're still too available.

 

+1
Owning a 308 carbuerated coupe and having driven a 1980 911 quite a few times. The two cars are not even similar in feel. The Porsche I drove is a great car and may ultimately be a car you can drive faster on a track, but for myself the feeling of the Ferrari is more visceral and exotic for the buck. For 30 grand this car feels like a full blooded exotic and they are rarely seen on the road. I drive 4-6 hours everyday and can see a dozen 911's some days. Hell I don't go to the track and the real-life driving of these cars you can't get anywhere close to the performance anyway. Lets be real here, a lot of the value of theses cars (if you plan to regularly drive them) is just how you feel driving them and also how you feel getting out of them and then looking over your shoulder when you walk away at a restaurant or somewhere. (Hey call me shallow. I'm loving every minute of it. EVERY drive feels like an adventure).
No offense intended to Porsche. I absolutely love them.

 

You got me there. They (whoever they are) say to, "never say never."

Of course this is strictly personal opinion (but being mine I happen to like it), the 911 feels a lot more like a sports car than the Ferrari 3X8s. Sports cars are supposed to be light on their feet. Yes, you must bow to the God of Oversteer when driving a 911 and vow never to lift mid corner; but other than that, a 911 is a joy to pitch into a corner. Every 3X8 car that I have driven has had a lot more body roll than a comparable 911.

(And this is also very personal, I hate the lazy boy seating position in the 3X8 cars.)

Yes, it paid the rent at a time when the rent really needed paying, and I agree that the 3X8 cars look great (not quite as a good as the original Dino, but pretty darn good). But why Ferrari, which was historically known for its engines, didn't step up to the plate and blow Porsche away with its mid-engine V8 design is a mystery. Maybe the real answer is that the 1974-1994 era of cars was a down cycle for everybody. You know, it wasn't cool to be fast during those years.

So here is my revised prediction: The first 75-89 Ferrari that takes off in value will be the Testarossa. Outragous looks, V12 motor, Miami Vice and all that. I could see a #2 car that currently trades at $55k going for $105k in maybe 10 years.

Once the TRs get picked over, the 3X8 cars will step up in value.

Between now and then, they represent one of the cheapest ways of having almost as much fun as the law allows.

Dale

 

Well I always thought there were collectible cars, valuable collector cars, and crap.

Theres lots of collectible cars, 308's 328's, old mustangs,camaros,impala's, alfa spiders, triumph tr3's, 300zx's.
These cars aren't valuable but there are alot of enthusiasts who like them and a few people who might have more than one there certainly not all cherished but theres alot that are. Then theres fewer valuable collectors i.e. 250gt's, F40, gullwing mercedes, bugatti's etc.

Then theres the crap, the honda accords, and Chey Lumina's, and Lexus of the world. The cars that serve as nothing more than basic transport and will probably never have any real value or be a collectors car.

 

The T-car as next in line for high value? I do not know. I agree they have that Miami Vice mystique. But to say that they will be the next one? That might be stretching it a bit. Granted they have that wedge shape and it was dramatic for its era, but do you really think they will double? Plus they built so many of them in that era.

 

The question becomes to find the right one. Not many out there anymore in great condition with full documentation.
Dont forget, a few are more cost effective today as a parts car then fixing.

As for the entire ferrari line up, the are all in a way rare, pre 355 more rare.

But, and heres the but.....the true collectible cars seem to have some kind of history attached to it. If the 80s becomes the era of when things were perfect like the 60s, then those cars will most likly become more valuable.

Just wont happen for along while.