disillusioned with the 360 & f1

one reason I bought my 2003 360 f1 a year ago was the rumor it was not like previous models. It was dependable. I drove it about 6000 miles,,mostly highway,no track use,no misuse.I was conciensous not to rev past 4000 until the oil was warm. In the last 3 weeks I've had 2 incidents of the clutch slipping in 1st gear. In one the rpm raced 2-3000 rpm and a cloud of smoke came out along with a burning smell which lasted several minutes.The car runs good except for those instances. Dealer says"You have 35% wear on clutch.Cause of problem may be swollen seals sticking to bearing so it doesn't fully engage.Even though car runs well most of the time the problem will worsen and you could cause more damage or get stuck on the road. You need throwout bearing and seals.Cost:$1100 parts $2500 labor.Since labor is same get new clutch,check flywheel. Parts possibly $4250.Need for this repair not unusual with this many miles on car.The seals have been updated and revised.Should last longer next time." My 1st reaction was to sell this beautiful peice of crap but the dealer WOULD ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR 20% LESS THAN I BOUGHT IT FOR 12 months ago. Is this wear normal? This should act as a warning to those in the market.

 

I think you have very unrealistic expectations about selling your car. Of course the dealer is giving you 20% less (which is pretty good in my book) consider it has 6000 more miles than before, AND is a year older. Dealers are in the business to make money, and they have to factor in a profit margin to cover expenses and overhead.

As far as the clutch wear, it can happen that some F1 cars experience early clutch wear. Has been posted about on Fchat many times. There is a reason FNA now offers (at a cost) the extended warranty program on used cars.

 

What's the current mileage?

 

current milage is 8500

 

Average mileage, that's unfortunate. Has anyone checked if there was a service bulletin on this issue and or whether FNA would partisapate in the repair. You could also get another quote from either another dealer and independent shop.

 

That is the concensus.....Some F1's suffer from "quick wear"

What color is your 360 spider?? If you are selling of course....

 

You bought a used example of a mid production car that when it was introduced was built with an early generation of a cutting edge technology. As such there are always developmental issues. Those developmental issues are very well known in the case of the F1 transmission. I have no idea what you were told or how it was represented to you at the time of purchase. I have been involved with them since the beginning and although I am a big fan of the F1 system I have never represented it as being as reliable or to have similar costs associated with it as a stick shift model. It is quite complex and simple logic tells us that. If it was not represented to you in that way you really have an issue with the sales person, not the car.

If you have had multiple malfunctions and despite asking to have them addressed and have be willing to pay to have them addressed you may also have an issue with whoever services the car. The F1 system at this point is pretty well understood by those who make their living repairing them and those malfunctions, if not driver induced, should be resolvable.


If you are looking for absolute reliability let me suggest a Toyota.

 

Seems to be a tad bit below average for wear but not unusual, it is a fair price and your tech is not misleading in any way the clutch wear is checked via the Ferrari computer and is accurate, if you get it fixed do it once and do it right
never pay money for the same labor... good luck

 

20% less sounds like a very fair offer. It was very low mileage when you bought it, now average mileage plus it would have depreciated some even if you had not driven it at all. Factor in they probably made 8-10% when they first sold it and it now needs an expensive repair, I would say getting out at 80% is a good deal. What other car brand could you bring back a year later, needing a repair and get 80%?

No Ferrari will ever be on the top of JD Powers reliability ratings. First, they are very complex, highly strung machines compared to others. Second, even at very high price tags, they do not make enough of them to amortize thorough development costs on every part. So, every model inevitably has some weak points.

If you like modern Ferraris that are reliable, buy a 360 or 430 coupe with a stick. That eliminates most problems. Of course, people who shift poorly or too aggressively can go through any clutch in any car pretty quick.

Dave

 

How long is the "cutting edge technology" argument going to hold up for Ferrari? Obviously a 400+ hp ferrari will never be as reliable as a toyota, but how much of that is "Ferrari" related. I'm thinking 348 vs. NSX back in the early 1990's. If Ferrari salespeople have to warn F1 buyers (especially used) about the possible failure rate of their product, wouldn't it just make more sense to develop the product a little further? Hell BMW's smg has shifted twice as fast as the Ferrari unit since '02. BTW, I'm a ferrari owner, with no bimmers.

 

That's what I thought as well. You were wise to buy it slightly used.

Also, 360s are still new enough to be depreciating even if you had just parked it in the garage.

Ferrari doesn't produce 100,000 cars a year, and we all expect them to filter their racing technology down to the street cars in short order. They're just not a mass producer, and you can't spend 3 years testing a component that's going to be used in a few thousand cars.

I'm sure part of it is also Italian qaulity conttrol versus Japanese Quality Control, but how would we feel if Ferrari just lifted the DSG out of an Audi and called it a day?

 

Both of my manual Ferraris were as reliable as my Toyotas, transmission and clutch wise.

Might want to think about dumping the flappies and shifting your own gears.

 

My apologies you are having troubles with a car that has very little milage. Am sitting back and seeing how 8,500 in the course of 3 years is not much at all, so am surprised you are already having troubles. Worse, the factory know of this as being a problem yet is not showing their customers the curtesy of fixing a known bad issue on such a new model. Sad really, and worse still you are offered to take a 20% bath which is, what, $30K? You could have purchased another car for the $30k loss like a new Lexus or used Mercedes.

Sorry guys, i am astounded by the logic in this thread. Perhaps some people enjoy being abused and sold defective cars that the dealer refuses to fix a known issue under warranty.

 

I too am suprised by the 'acceptance' here of such appaling quality. Ferrari should be sorting this no question. Also the notion of having an extended warranty option at extra cost is disgusting, it should be a reasonable warranty period in the acr from new period! To me it shows up as a manufacturer who is not itself convinced about quality of its product.

Those who think this is in any way acceptable should be ashamed of yourselves.

Having said that from the dealers point of view I do think a 20% knock back on the buy back offer is extremely good. Myself I would never be conned into the sales patter of the F1, give me a stick shift, schumi can have the paddles.

 

I remember reading a few years ago that Schumi's road cars had 3 pedals though I do not know if that is still true.

Dave

 

I would feel the same as this post but I must admit both of my Ferraris have been perfect. Not issue one! I had issues reoccurring issue it woukld be gone. Having said that I like both of these cars and they are an intoxicating cars to drive (no pun intended)

The cars are a little expensive to maintain but to me it part of the black side of exclusivitity. It is worth it in my view.

Sorry you are having trouble.

Lee

 

So your 4 year old $160,000 (3 year warrantied?) car needs $3600 spending on it to fix it? Its only like spending $360 to repair a Toyota Corolla.

 

I had an '01 360, and now have an '03 575M. Both of these cars are F-1. They are NOT automatics. There are rules. First, DO NOT sit at a stoplight in 1st gear. Go to neutral. Not doing so is like sitting at a light with the clutch depressed. You will wear out the clutch prematurely. These cars have clutches. Second, do not downshift into 1st gear until you come to a stop. Would you do that with a standard shift?

I am not saying you were not sold a defective car, and you cannot know how the previous owner drove it. Any fine machine can be ruined by a fool with money. Frankly, I have never had a problem with either car.

I read the manual cover-to-cover when I buy a car (any car). Then I talk to the chief mechanic about driving characteristics and anything peculiar that is not in the book. Finally, I put his number into speed dial. I get to know him.

Perhaps, I am preaching to the choir or locking the proverbial door after the horse is gone. However, for both of us, there will be a next time. A little homework is a lot cheaper than a repair. I wish you the best.

 

And the 360 F1 predates it. The 575 was better, the 430 better still, the Enzo better than that, the 612 better than that, the 599 better than that and the next car will be better than that.

He doesn't have an Enzo, or a 430, if he wanted a better newer more reliable system than 99 technology he should have bought it.

 

Who's accepting it? The car has a problem and needs to be fixed, the price is not out of line. No one used a gun to sell a car that is out of warranty and just like other cars an extended warranty is available for those that still wear short pants.

 

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Just get the car serviced and be sure and read all the great tips provided here on the best way to drive an F1 and enjoy the car.

 

I was just thinking about this the other day... downshifting when coming to stops is probably the #1 thing that eats through the F1 tranny clutches on these kinds of cars.

Do careful F1 owners treat their cars like they would a normal MT car?
In normal driving I usually don't downshift. I just let the car slow down on its own in gear... then clutch out to Neutral if I know I'm coming to a full stop. I try not to coast in Neutral just incase I need to step on the gas to get out of the way.
This can be easily done with F1's right? Just click both paddles and put the car in Neutral.
What about when approaching a slow right hand street turn? If I'm say... in 5th slowing down, approaching the turn, I would slow down, grab Neutral and coast for a little bit... then grab 2nd and ease out of the turn. Saves a bit of clutch life since I'm not going down all the consecutive gears.
Can this be done with an F1 tranny? Once you've selected N... you have to go into 1st, right? Or are you able to skip gears?

Just curious.

Sorry to read about your problems. Nothing worse than having a new car get bogged down with technical problems.

edit: Wait. Does the clutch ingage immediately when upshifting? Or only when you're on the throttle?

 

When shifting is done correctly, up or down almost zero clutch wear is the result. A properly operated car equipped with a clutch will experience 90+% of it's clutch wear taking off from a stop. The only time any clutch wear takes place is when there is pressure being exerted on the clutch disc and there is an RPM differential between the flywheel and the input shaft of the transmission. Again, the only time that takes place on a properly operated clutch is taking off from a stop.

It does not happen when
Sitting idling in gear
Downshifting to a stop
Upshifting during acceleration

1st generation 360 clutch software did often malfunction in a way that would allow clutch slippage during casual downshifting. That and the fact that improper clutch usage in stick shift cars is so wide spread is why I stated "properly operated clutch".


You can down shift all you want (properly) and you can sit at a stop light till the cows come home with the car in gear and the clutch will suffer no ill effects.

 

Thanks to those who responded. I was upset when I denigrated the car. I kind of expected to have problems,just not so soon. The car had 6 months warrenty on it when I bought it and i didn't feel the extended warrenty was worth buying. I still don't. When I'm coming to a stop I always shift to neutral and coast the last 30 yards or so. I never downshift to 1st.To take a corner I would downshift to 2nd or 3rd directly from 4th or 5th and not go to neutral in between. From neutral one can go to 2nd by clicking twice rapidly but I've never found a need to do this. The car is operating perfectly right now and I wonder if I should get it fixed or wait to see if the slippage comes back.Am I just kidding myself ? It appears the clutch engages as soon as the paddle is clicked and then when the gas peddle is depessed there is a seamless run up in rpm. During that run up I don't hear or feel anything. To rifledriver: please explain what you mean by "malfuctioning may be resolvable" Also,I thought there were signifigant improvements in the f1 between when it first was put into the 360 and when my car was built in 2003? Is mine still considered a first generation ? One other decision I have to make is whether to use an independent to make the repair ? I've decided to put a new clutch in while the car is apart.

 

For what it's worth, from 2000 to 2003 I had x3 Alfa Romeo Selespeeds (all brand new, one after the other). Selespeed is a system derived from and very similar to Ferrari's F1 (felt identical when I drove a 360 F1) and in that time each cars shift was different to the next due to constant software upgrades and some hardware changes. I imagine the 360 will have gone throught the same process.