DIY Daytona Fuel-Delivery Clean-Up | Page 2 | FerrariChat

DIY Daytona Fuel-Delivery Clean-Up

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by gcalex, Oct 6, 2024.

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  1. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Yikes, if my hose had started to tear, I would have been terrified... :)

    Still, like I said, that hose is heavily reinforced, so a true "break" would take s lot, I would think.

    Regardless, it is good to hear that even with some amount of hose tearing it was still possible to get the hose out; many thanks for contributing that additional data-point. One of the reasons I wanted to do this thread is because I could easily imagine some future DYIer thinking that some problem (stuck hose probably being the worst of them) was insurmountable, and having their car flat-bedded someplace, when they actually might be been capable of addressing themselves, if only they had known some of the realities of the whole end-to-end process. The amount that a shop would charge for getting a hose like that out would probably be pretty scary; I could even imagine a "full restoration" being recommended, so that the sills could be cut-open to replace the rusted pipe...:)

    Oh, and before I get blow-back for possibly insinuating that shops frivolously recommend full restorations... (1) note the "smiley", I don't think an experienced shop would think it was impossible to get the hose out. (2) I actually could imagine an inexperienced shop thinking it was impossible, and certainly think that there would be a concern that the expense to remove the hose would cause an unhappy customer, and hence a general desire to avoid the job all together. (3) I have been surprised at how how willingness to pay for a "full restoration" seems to be expected of someone owning such a car, so it would not shock me if someone did recommend cutting open the sill to fix a stuck hose.

    At the very least, however, if some future owner does decide to leave it to the professionals, after reviewing this thread, they will hopefully be more sympathetic/understanding if they get a big bill for replacing that hose.
     
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  2. TTR

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    Alex, first I wish to apologize for breaking a promise for not commenting/posting on your thread, but I would like to acknowledge the great job you've accomplished.
    Having done this to several Daytonas in the past, I'm fully aware varying difficulties that can occur with a job like this.

    Here's a photo from long ago of one time that nearly did me in.
    After days/hours of soaking the tube with penetrants and periodically pulling on the (old) hose from front (with one leg on the chassis/engine bay & the other on that step ladder), it suddenly let go, its end slapping across my face (see the longitudinal "dirt" stripe on my face in the photo :rolleyes:) and sent me flying backwards, over the front of the car and landing me on the floor.
    The brief moment I was airborne, all I could think is how should I position my arms & legs so they wouldn't hit the car and cause any damage/dents to it. I didn't. :)
    And yes, after about 5-10 minutes laying on the floor in pain, bleeding from my mouth (apparently had bit my tongue), catching my breath (the landing knocked the wind out of me pretty good) and wondering whether I had broken any bones or my skull, I finally got up, took a peek in the washroom mirror, cleaned off some of blood and set my camera on timer to stage this documentation (I took couple of more photos, but they're a bit too gruesome for sharing publicly).

    Ironically, about a year after the fuel system service, it was decided to embark on a multi year "full restoration" and I ended up fabricating new tubes along with numerous other panels and space frame tubes, etc.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I would also like to add that all of this (replacement of hoses, filter, etc) should be a part of scheduled maintenance of any vintage car every 10 years or so, but how many actually end up receiving such care ?
     
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  3. TTR

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    EDIT :
    Obviously the fuel "filters"and alike would be better replaced/serviced much more often than "every 10 years or so", but I'm sure every serious (vintage) car enthusiast here knows & does that.
     
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  4. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Hi Timo,

    I always welcome your input, so no apologies necessary; just reserve the right to not always agree with you... :)

    Oh, man, yeah I probably would not have stood on anything while doing that pulling; I even dropped the car a notch on my little QuickJack to get a little more leverage on my "leg lifts". Though it sounds like my hose was more seriously "rusted in", because it never was in any danger of moving more than a couple of inches at a time.

    It is actually lucky that there is a long length of hose from the pipe to the carbs; if there were only a short length, it would have been a lot harder to apply the amount of force needed to get the hose moving.

    -- Alex
     
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  5. TTR

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    Alex, the one in my photo also moved very little each time I pulled up on it, maybe a few millimeters at a time and took hours, until ... :(
    All others I've done have been much easier, i.e. safer & less painful endeavors. :)

    Here are the old (quite rusty) and new replacement tubes I fabricated during the "full restoration".
    Copyright TTR
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  6. TTR

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    Not offering a “blow-back”, but rather another point of view:
    I’ve seen these fuel hoses having been replaced without removal of the old one, but instead, another new replacement hose having been “snaked” through the rocker panel or re-routed under the car, along the chassis tubes, even on “restored” cars.
    I couldn’t say whether these were done by DIY owners or “professional”(?) mechanics/restorers, but apparently someone thought they were adequate solutions.:confused:
    In one case, someone had cut the old hose off right at both ends of the tube, making the removal of rest of it, shall we say, challenging. :rolleyes:
    I’ve also seen photos in which someone had cut the old hose slightly outside of each tube end and spliced new replacement hoses to it. o_O
     
  7. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
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    Hi Timo,

    Many thanks for adding that picture, it think it is really helpful to be able to see what that pipe actually looks like out of the car. In my case the worst rust started from after the first (starting from the left) gentle downward bend and seemed to go a tangible (at least several inches) distance past that left-side sharp kink. The rest of the pipe seemed to have some surface rust, but nothing that was bad enough to scar the hose.

    For anyone that might be wondering, the second pipe (the one with the straight left-hand end) in each assembly is the one that has the (hard) brake-line pipes running through it.

    -- Alex
     
  8. gcalex

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    To be sure, I probably would say that cutting open the sills would be preferable to these sorts of "patch ups", but of course, the motivation for starting all this discussion was to prevent future folks from concluding that opening the sills (or likely worse, such patch-ups) were needed, just because a hose seemed to be stuck...

    BTW: in an earlier reply, I should have added a thanks for your cautionary tale of falling while wrestling with that hose. Future DYI'er definitely should take that tale to heart. Having had similar experiences in other contexts, I know all to well how that kind of accident feels, even when one "gets of easy" and does not find one's self in the hospital; glad you were more-or-less ok.
     
  9. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 World Champ
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    I suppose all these metal details add up to make the Daytona a bit on the heavy side.
     
  10. TTR

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    The original design or should I say fabrication "flaw", if you will, in both of these tubes is that they weren’t originally made with any drain* holes for their lowest spots, so the years & decades of dirt/moisture/water (from driving in the rain/snow, washing the car, etc) collecting inside** them will do what can be expected.
    There's an old wisdom which applies here, "Rust never sleeps"

    Actually, the lower tube that carries the brake (in mid-to-late production/US-market cars) & fuel return (& evap) line tubings, etc is a more serious concern because the “dirt/moisture/water/etc" inside it can and eventually will rust & break the brake & fuel return line tubings, potentially causing or contributing to some fairly disastrous outcomes.
    I’ve replaced them after some failures on more than one Daytona and on others as a part of precaution before they break (most ended up being close calls due to decades of neglect).
    I can even recall an instance about 15 or so years ago in which I cautioned/warned an owner about this pending doom in his car, only to have him opt out (due to it sounding "expensive") and then, couple of weeks later, receiving a call from him acknowledging I had been correct with my assessment, as one of his brake line tubings had bursted due to rust damage, evidenced by brake fluid dripping from the inside of the LH rocker panel couple of days earlier, yet he had already had it (& only "it", the broken line) "fixed"(?).
    I'm not sure if this was the reason, but I heard he ended up selling the car fairly soon after that.

    Just imagine how many Daytonas, including so-called “completely/fully restored” examples still have their 50+ years old, OEM brake & fuel return lines inside of that lower tube, just waiting for the disaster to strike ?
    Not to mention the owners who can & will easily spend five figures on frivolous things like manual pouches & tool kits while ignoring a proper & thorough brake or fuel delivery systems rebuilds/restorations which their car may have never received and would definitely benefit from, if for nothing else than safety and peace of mind.
    But then again, these are things that separate real (vintage) car enthusiasts from those who just pretend to be such and good, properly maintained/restored (vintage) cars from those that just aren't.

    * While not 100% authentic, I added them to my replacement tubes and in couple of instances to the OEM tubes in situ. Remember, just like any other car manufacturer (or their coach builder), Ferrari (or Scaglietti) didn't really expect these cars to last for or be in use decades later.

    ** Especially susceptible in cars with noticeable downward sloping front rake, allowing (or forcing ?) any moisture/water/etc to collect/flow down to the lower front sections of the tubes.

    P.S. These tubes can be replaced without cutting/opening the rocker (or sill ?) panels and/or requisite body & paint work, but the task might be beyond most home garage DIY’ers (or service/restoration shops) abilities.
     
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  11. NYC Fred

    NYC Fred F1 World Champ
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    Is there any type of 'long term' grease/lubricant that could be applied to the new hose that might last til next replacement time?

    Verizon had to pull fiber through conduit at the beach. Worker told me the conduit interior was coated with a temperature based lube. Pull fiber, create heat, lube activates making it easier to pull fiber.
     
  12. TTR

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    I don't see why one couldn't apply some grease, oil, silicon lubricant, etc to assist with installation/removal of the fuel hose and to some extent, help prevent internal corrosion of the tube which the hose runs through.
    Just make sure it's compatible with the outside compound of the hose.
     
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  13. turbo-joe

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    how you want to test this?
     
  14. TTR

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    I don’t need or want to, but I’m sure little research with hose manufacturers would be a good start if needed.
     
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