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Do people really think M. Schumaher hit J Vill in 97?

Discussion in 'F1' started by 62 250 GTO, Feb 1, 2004.

  1. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    Michael Schumacher in Jerez in 1997 was just turning in to the turn when WHAM! JV charged up the inside, with a gawddamn horrible line, outbraking himself, banging MS off and STILL RUNNING WIDE! Holy IshouldbeinCartorIRL Batman that was a pissy thing to do. Just look at the onboard camera of MS, he was turning into the corner when bullet {jv} was streaking down the inside, still going straight! He would have shot off the track if no one was there! I still can't believe MS didn't rejoin the race. Did he stall it or was there a mechanical problem, like suspension trouble? Damn it1 He should already have his 8th! {Stupid broken leg}
     
  2. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    I have a clip of the collision from a head on view and the onboard of MS. From dead ahead it looks like MS turns into him {JV} but he hasn't much choice in the matter, the turn is right there. The onboard shows that MS didn't even see JV till he was right beside him, that was too late. Now that I see it again, MS as soon as the car is almost stopped he grabs at the dash, I think there was car trouble after JV hit him.
     
  3. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think it was a racing incident..That he didnt do it on purpose.
    JV moves was bold but thats racing..
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Yes I do think MS paniced and turned into JV.

    I remember that race vividly and MS was having major pace trouble and JV was gaining fast, real fast. MS appeared to be suffering the mental consequences of where he was on the track and the effect it was going to have ... and his driving was real ragged, and getting worse every lap.

    I feel for the guy because he was about to become a hero, etc. and I think he mentally crumbled.

    On top of that the last set of tyres did not appear to be a good set, but I still think MS was struggling with the enormitty of the situation.

    Thus JV took a way to optimistic pass attempt (nothing against him for this ... this was when he was actually showing racing driver ability, which he lost after this season!) and MS (already swetting big time) panicked and tried to block the pass WAYYYYY to late. CRASH! and MS's race is all over.

    It is such a shame, as like you say, if MS was not fighting the little demons in his head and had seen JV pounce, he may well have either:

    1. Blocked earlier, or
    2. Let him spear of the track and MS would have gained some useful seconds advantage and made him relax a bit and help those weakening tyres.

    Arh, it was not to be and instead MS was given hell for being a race driver wanting to win. Funny thing is MANY forgot that this was the norm and Senna (one of the worst at this) used to plan his attacks even BEFORE the race started. It is 100% the norm in saloon car races to bump and grind and actually fight for the lead ... and yet in F1 any attempt at REAL wheel banging racing is NOW banned as been too much like REAL racing :(

    Fair is fair and I do not like the way saloon car drivers simply bump the guy in front off if they cannot get passed ... and I HATED Senna for his Prost Ferrari attack at Suzuka. Personally that was far worse and far more dangerous as they were really moving into that corner. What I would like to see though is a bit more banging wheels and a bit more fighting for the pass or win, without un-sporting stuff. Fine line yes but we used to have it, especially before the Senna's death.

    Pete
     
  5. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    Watching Senna's off, makes me really think about how I drive on the street. I haven't blasted past cars on the freeway in almost a week, Maybe it will stick this time. I have to stop driving so damn fast. I don't know how many more tickets and nights in jail I can avoid. Not to mention losing the car I'm driving at the time. It's the only little sticky thing I do that I hate. It pisses me off. But watching that video clip od Senna scares me.
     
  6. Skelter

    Skelter Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    I believe MS did hit JV in '97, he did it to Hill in '95 and Mika before F1, so i don't doubt he'd do it again.

    As for Senna, Prost had taken him out the year before at the same track during the race cos he couldn't hold him back, and what Senna did was a statement against him being screwed over because even though he was on Pole he was forced to start from the dirty side of the track, so even though Prost was starting from P2 he would have an advantage over Senna, so what Senna did is warn everyone that he would not be backing down going in the first corner.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I could start an argument here ... but Prost did not take Senna out at Suzuka when they came together at the chicane. It is 100% up to the overtaker to make the move. There was no way in hell that Senna was ever going to get through! ... period! BUT it was simply a hard racing incident and Senna should not have continued with his 'I am God BS' and accepted it for what it was. He's been there and raced long enough, and his side of that incident is just 150% BS. Also NOBODY correctly was penalised for that incident. Senna only got done for driving around the chicane instead of through it as correct. If he had driven through the chicane correctly he would have won the WC.

    As for not backing down the next year at the first corner, er, there is a bit of a difference in going into a corner sort of side by side and racing hard ... and what actually happened, which was Senna drove into the BACK RIGHT of Prosts car.

    Sorry but if you believe Senna was in the right for those 2 incidents you have no knowledge of motorsport rules. Senna should have been sat out for 1 year after that second Suzuka incident!.

    Quite frankly Senna was a brilliant driver, one of the best ever, but a complete fnck wit with many, many incidents like this. Another was punching Irvine (also at Suzuka) for Irvine having the balls to race a another driver on a race track ... gees sorry God almighty Senna.

    Pete
    ps: Yes I agree you should have respect for the dead, and this I do, but that does not mean we should distort history to make the said person FAR better than he actually was. Senna was a great driver, brilliant qualifier, but also a very dangerous person who I would have been nervous to race against. No driver should ever think so highly of himself to believe he is God and fnck everybody else on the track.
     
  8. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    My boss at the time bought the MS car in question, and I ran it here in Australia for him.

    Ferrari sold it as the "it Won Suzuka 1997" and "when Shumi turned in on Villeneuve" car........I guess that's confirmation enough!
     
  9. Ferrari_co_uk

    Ferrari_co_uk Karting

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    Do people really think that MS didn't deliberately hit JV in '97?

    Come on, putting loyalty to one side he quite clearly made a concious decison to hit JV. You can see it on the video, he starts to turn in then straightens up when he see's JV, then realising that the whole season has come down to this he has a choice to make, conceede the corner and most likely the WC or drive into JV, and he choose wrong. It also spoiled what was a very good manoeuvre by JV.

    Motor Racing is not a contact sport, you do not 'rub wheels' in single seaters. His actions were inexcusable, he brought his sport into disrepute. Also because he is the worlds best driver people look at what he does and emulate it. You can see it with kids in karting, they think it's all right to take an opponent off if the means justify the end.

    Japan '89. Prost pretty much said before the race that if he was leading and Senna made a move he would shut the door, and that is exactly what he did... although a little late. You could see it wasn't his style.
    Japan '90. Senna exacts revenge with probably the most blatant punt ever in motor racing.

    Also Senna's beef with Irvine was that he was being lapped (I'm not defending him punching Irvine) not the same as racing someone on the same lap.

    Best
    Mark
     
  10. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    I watched the onboard and MS didn't straigten the wheel then turn it again, he turned it even more because he was at the entrance to a corner. Do you really think that JV could have made the corner with that speed and already on the inside curb? He would have driven straight through the turn if he hadn't collided with MS.

    As for
    >>>"he quite clearly made a concious decison to hit JV. You can see it on the video, he starts to turn in then straightens up when he see's JV, then realising that the whole season has come down to this he has a choice to make, conceede the corner and most likely the WC or drive into JV, and he choose wrong. It also spoiled what was a very good manoeuvre by JV">>>
    That a lot to think about and decide in 0.2 seconds. I think he was rammed by a gy and left at the side of the road. JV isn't the most cautious driver either. Now he can't find a ride at all... makes you think.
     
  11. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    No question he did that on purpose. No question whatsoever.
     
  12. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    It wasn´t a conscious decision: it was a passionate crime.

    But he´s guilty everyway.

    Forza Ferrari.
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I think you're quite right. Heat of the moment comes to my mind. Had he actually planned and thought about it, he wouldn't have done such a lousy job.
    :)
     
  14. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula Junior

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    I agree. MS did the same in 1994 (on Damon Hill), but that time he succeeded and won his first championship. So for me he is now a 5 times World Champion, not a six time winner.
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Making that conclusion might be a bit harsh and unfair: You have to look at the whole year of 1994 and see what games the FIA played to keep the newcomer MS and/or Benetton down. They barred him from racing in mid season, which cost him points he defended at the end of the year.

    Read Matchett's book "Living in the fast lane" and you'll get an interesting perspective on things. Even *IF* Benetton cheated (which is very unclear), they were dealt a brutal judgement. Remember they took away his Spa points because his wooden plank had cerrations from the kerbs too deep for the regulation. That was a stupid decision by any means and set the rules clear thereafter. But MS never got those points back. And let's not even get started about the fuel filler. Those things still don't work, after ten years...

    Hill clearly did not deserve that WC in my opinion. However you might also want to read the book "Racers" about Hill's WC winning year. Also very interesting and even somebody like me can warm up to Hill after that.
    :)
     
  16. Ferrari_co_uk

    Ferrari_co_uk Karting

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    I think we are watching two different onboard cameras then :) because I see him straighten up, then turn in hard on JV. Yes I think JV would have made the corner anyway, a sideswipe like that from MS would not have made much difference to JV's speed. We aren't exactly talking about a t-bone hit here.


    It was a split second choice...I'm not saying he planned in advance to do this because that's impossible. But he had a choice...

    So how far ahead in your book does someone have to be to claim the corner? MS' front right tyre hit JV's left sidepod, how does that constitute JV ramming MS??

    Best
    Mark
     
  17. Ferrari_co_uk

    Ferrari_co_uk Karting

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  18. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    >>>"I think we are watching two different..."
    All racers in all rwd classes move the wheel when turning to keep the car settled, this was no different.


    >>>"So how far ahead in your book does someone have to be to claim the corner?..."
    So if JV was 400 yards behind and just didn't brake at all, he would have the corner? He was going to damn fast and outbraked himself. AND he was alread on the curb going into a very tight corner, he would have driven straight off the track if no one was there. Just because you outbrake yourself and inch ahead of a car does not mean you have to racing line. IF they never touched JV would have run off and MS would have driven away, he had the right speed and line to take the turn, JV did not.
     
  19. Ferrari_co_uk

    Ferrari_co_uk Karting

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    Why was he disqaulified from the '97 world championship?
    And from the horses mouth...

    Reuters

    Maranello, Italy- A contrite Michael Schumacher admitted that he was to blame for a highly controversial collision with Jacques Villeneuve during the European Grand Prix.

    But he said the incident, which ended with his Ferrari spinning off the track, was a matter of misjudgement rather than a deliberate attempt to force Villeneuve out of the race.

    The former world champion, who went into the season's final race last Sunday with a one-point lead over Villeneuve, said all drivers knew that the sport's ruling body could deduct points for misconduct after a race had finished.

    "If you know this...it (a deliberate crash) does not make you a champion. It just makes you look very stupid," he told a news conference.

    Schumacher said he had made a mistake in the heat of the moment and that presented with the situation again he would not react in the same way.

    "I am human like everyone else and unfortunately I made a mistake. I don't make many but I did this time," the Ferrari driver told a news conference at the team's headquarters.

    Schumacher, who has been pilloried in both the German and Italian press, said had been taken by surprise by the audacity of Villeneuve's attempt to overtake him when he had been leading the race.

    He crashed out of the race on the 48th lap when he appeared to try to block Villeneuve as the Williams driver sought to slip by him on the inside.
     
  20. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    Can I see a photo of that article or a link?
    He said his car spun off the track eh? It did not. it simple drove off in a straight line. So maybe he was doing the good racers thing saying yeah it's all good no one was hurt, play on.
     
  21. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    I wasn't aware this was still an issue, but I was always pretty convinced that MS did it on purpose. I doubt it was his game plan when he got out of bed that morning, but rather a last second blocking attempt that went sour.
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Agree, but MS was bought up in F1 watching Senna do this almost every race and get away with it ... thus your next comment should be directed at Senna NOT MS ...

    Why not rub wheels?, Gilles did all the time ... but yes there is a line between racing and dodgem cars ;).

    See my comment above. Okay for Senna but not for MS ... double standards ... is this an anti-German thing by the British media? Lets remember that the British commentory team made it a lot worse than it had to be with their on the spot comments ...

    Agree, but the person in front is allowed to do anything they like and Senna would have needed Prost to allow him to pass for that to happen. It was never going to happen and thus Senna tried an understandably desperate move ... fair enough he is a racer and so is Prost. All the comments about Senna all over the back of Prost is rubbish too, as Prost had to defend and also save his car ... Senna had the easier job, as it is always easy to be the second guy ... pushing and pushing, etc.

    In the end Prost beat Senna in the same car with McLaren support definitely on Senna's side (because Prost was leaving at the end of that season and Senna was the new boy) ... this in my opinion was a huge effort by Prost and why I will always rate Prost as a better racer than Senna ... but not as charimatic, and thus as popular.

    This was NO heat of the moment action like MS's this was a premeditated mad man move, that was far worse for the reputation of motorsport ... but because everybody loved (or feared) Senna nothing was done. Again if MS was not German and JV was not driving for an English team would it have been such a big deal ... plus part of the drama was also the MS versus Hill which again was a desperate act to keep in front. If Hill had braked or not made contact with MS he would have won ... but I do not blame Hill for seeing the opportunity and going for it.

    Agreed, but if the guy in front is so slow you are entitled to unlap yourself ... you do not have to follow like a good puppy for the rest of the race. Thus Irvine thought Senna was too slow, thus safely past him. Senna was just pissed because he was shown up by a new comer.

    Pete
     
  23. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    This part always makes me wonder the current statistics being tossed around about MS. His 1000th points win last year etc. etc. Do these statistics exclude or include the 97 points? My guess would be the include them as from a driver's perspective they should, but technically they really should not. Nowhere do you ever see a footnote to this regard.

    Maybe I'm taking this all way too serious.
    :)
     
  24. Ferrari_co_uk

    Ferrari_co_uk Karting

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    Everyone is responsible for their own actions though. Agree that AS got away with a lot.

    Just ask Kenny Brack...

    Whow...this thread is about MS not AS. Where have I said this would be ok for AS? And from memory it was the German and Italian media that went to town on MS after Jerez. http://www.autorace.co.za/news/27oct97.htm

    Yes you can do what you like when you are in front, but not when they are alongside.


    Agree, see my comments in previous post

    Agree

    Yes it would, nationality has nothing to do with this.

    Best
    Mark
     
  25. Ferrari_co_uk

    Ferrari_co_uk Karting

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    Typical, cant find the website now but it was a Reuters story.
    'He' didn't say his car spun, the article did.
    Reference to the apology in this article http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/10/16/fspage_0.htm

    Best
    Mark
     

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