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Do Vintage Fans Really Hate Modern Ferrari's?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rossocorsa1, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. polds

    polds Rookie

    Aug 17, 2005
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    The world has changed drastically.

    The purchaser of a Ferrari in the 50's/60's was a very different animal than today.

    They were much more exclusive in their heyday. Purchased by cognoscenti who had proper wealth and more importantly class.

    They had real disposable wealth. Not bubble payment clever finance. The cars had impeccable style back then. It was an innocent time as I reflect. There was no PC.

    Their image was not garish or flash. They were known for being to some degree troublesome and unreliable. That was what the general public thought and why all exotic cars plummeted in value before the world changed decided they were an asset to be invested in.

    Today a Ferrari is a mass produced machine. The brand has sold out and is associated with pens, computers, watches and clothing.

    The sort of chap that ordered road going SWB or (DB4 GT, Alfa GTA) is never to be repeated.

    The time has passed.

    If you want it back in your garage be prepared to spend a lot to experience it..
     
  2. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    +1 Very nicely put.
     
  3. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    This is a rather depressing commentary. I don't agree with it at all. I have a new Ferrari (and an older one) and it isn't for the purposes of being flashy. In fact, I make it a point to go on all my drives on quiet country roads. I'm not alone either. Most of the owners I know of contemporary Ferrari's are very passionate about their cars and the brand. I can also assure you that anyone buying a Ferrari today has means. As for impeccable style, I'm sure most did and I'm sure some didn't. Sure, their is the ilk that is obnoxious, flamboyant and flashy. The crowd may have a different look and sound in our society today, but they always existed and they always will. And, they will always gravitate towards expensive brands.

    Regarding the company and brand, the world changes. Though, I always laugh at the term "mass produced". Yes, they don't sit in a tiny workshop in Maranello and make a car a month, but I would hardly call any Ferrari mass produced. In fact, the numbers prove that new Ferrari's, as a percentage of vehicles today, are actually much rarer today than ever. If you go to the factory today, you'll see it is still a rather small operation, and incredibly smaller than "mass produced" auto brands. Interestingly, today they do a much greater perception of their production and work at the factory than they actually did in the earlier days. It is still a beautiful craft, I was happy to discover.

    Sure things are different, the cars are different, people are different. It's fine if one prefers the older cars (in many ways, I do as well), but I also think the modern cars and the company are doing great things as well.





     
  4. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    Whoa.........308 a mediocre design? :eek: Seriously?
    I beg to differ. We can debate this all day long, but I could not disagree more.......and I don't own a 308.
    I respectfully disagree concerning Pininfarina's impact on Ferrari in the '60's. To me they were just hitting their stride.
    I guess we'll agree to disagree.
     
  5. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

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    I agree with you. the 308 is among the prettiest mid engine designs ever.
     
  6. -K1-

    -K1- Formula Junior

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    308/GTO = best ever mid engine design. Which one you prefer depends on the bias you have for pretty/agression but what is clear is that this is a stunner!
     
  7. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I tried to be polite.
     
  8. greg 19425

    greg 19425 Formula 3
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    .............yes, yes. I would love a new 308 GTB. :)
     
  9. polds

    polds Rookie

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    #59 polds, Aug 26, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
    I forgot to add that if you had GBP6300 in 1963 you could buy off the Old Man or from Mr Hoare a GTO and have a go on the various race tracks of this planet.

    Mr Piper is as an example who bought many road fit racers. Today that is just a dream.

    Don't get me wrong I do like the 488 and F12. They are sensational machines.

    But the vintage stuff is magical. They invigorate. They assault ones senses. Hearing the scream of a V12 on Webers coming on cam whist sitting in a masterpiece of an interior looking down the bonnet of an achingly gorgeous machine is sublime.

    Modern Ferrari's do it "too well". I do not want to be cosseted by electronics and I don't really care how many G the car can generate at the edge of its performance window.

    Finally (at least in London) if one should pull up in a vintage Ferrari in Notting Hill all and sundry will comment as to its beauty and sheer presence. The layman appreciates what it represents and there will never be any animosity. A new Ferrari will simply announce you have a degree of funds to own such a machine...

    A friend of mine has a Red 360 Mod coupe. It had not turned a wheel in 12 months as he prefers to use his 500F in London. He says that people like the 500 but the Modena gets no such praise from Mr Public.

    Perhaps my thoughts are a reflection of the world we now live in.
     
  10. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    That's all that needs to be said.

    My line is drawn at pre-F40 and post-F40. After the F40 . . . . . . . meh.
     
  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    We can debate styling back and forth. Yes most new ferraris look cartoonish. Then along came the 458, a non retro non derivative design that met global regulatory standards and was still a classic latin beauty, so it can be done. Then the 488, its like a face with the ear lobes scalpeld off.

    The bigger issue imo is how they drive. The 458 was frankly a bland experience untill going over 9/10ths and thats not realisticaly possible. The 458 drove as stylish lexus should, I doubt the 488 is any improvement.

    As to what should be done. Ferrari in Lucas time started making cars anyone could drive, and the driving experience got lost, while the bandwidth of buyers was massively expanded. Somewhere tough between the bland driving exerience and the whole dealer games ferrari buying experince the core enthusiasts got lost and left to buy elsewhere.

    The ferrari "brand" for want of a better word is built on two pillars, the racing sucess and the core sporting driver. Whats left, the F1 racing is so far removed that its irrelevant to many of us, and they dont make cars for sporting drivers, (on ocasion when they do the car is only purchaseable only by "collectors").

    Whats to be done, imagine a 458 body, really lightened, not with fake Cf but really just lightend without creature comforts excess electronics, sound deadening, yes a stick and yes no ps. Since turbos are a fact of life, put the turbo motor in, but have the turbos come in with a bit of a bang. I viceral alive car, thats whats missed. Somethign produced in enough numbers enthusiasts can buy it, obviating collector games.

    Or a simpler take, use the 4c tub, the alfa turbo motor which is apparently a ferrai v8 missing tow cylinders, do some great stylign stick etc and you have your core enthisats ferrari. If Jim G could redesign the enzo to the p4 then ferrari could do a great take using the 4c tub.

    Mostly make it raw viceral alive. Tech brings reliability, great chassis balance, power etc, get rid of the tech that detracts from the driving.

    And yes still make the rest of the line as is for the 85% of customers who like what ferrari currently builds.
     
  12. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

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    The 308 and its production contemporaries were the last beautiful Ferraris. These would be the last cars that looked purely Italian. You can't say that for anything else that came out of Maranello thereafter.

    john
     
  13. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    I agree, but then I have a 308 GTS. But I must admit that the GTB is prettier.

    I think that the crisp lines of the 308 were spoiled in in the rounded line of the 328.
    Although the 328 has a little more power and a parking brake that works, I prefer the
    handling of the 308. The 308 has steering that feels more connected to the road than
    that of the 328 that I drove, and perhaps the 308 has just a little stiffer springs that also
    makes the 308 handle better.

    It apears to me that ofter later versions of a car are not a pretty as the original version.
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Yes the 328 corrupted the lines, but then USA spec 308s look poor compared to the origional needle nose euro design anyway. They also weigh more and produce less power.
    Personally i think a Euro QV is the pick of the bunch.

    While some love the 355, to me the front end is meh toyota Mr2, but the rest is really great, especialy considering its a legislation car.

    then came the 458, bearing in mind its a legislation car, its stunning, origional and latin, sadly it seems this was a brief spark of brilliance in the night. To drive its meh.

    Whats really missing from the moderns is the viceral driving experience. Maybe a 308 is not fast by modern standards, but to drive, well it has no modern peers.
     
  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    I think you will find that the redesign was by Pininfarina.
     
  16. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    #66 Rossocorsa1, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
    I love vintage cars. Some of my favorite Ferrari's are the classics from the fifties and sixties, without question. Having said that, they're vintage cars. I don't want Ferrari making them today, nor would they. Anyone thinking they should isn't realistic. I'm also quit confident that if the same men running the company were at the helm today, they too would embrace, and lead, modern technology and design. That's one of the very foundations of Ferrari's success.
     
  17. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Yep, sorry I meant he paid for it and provided the designers with the inspiration he wished to evoke. If I can criticise the car its that while undeniably beautiful its still retro. Whereas the 458 is just inspired.
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    I thought that's what you meant to say and he provided Pininfarina with a replica to inspire them.
     
  19. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    I agree that the European 308 has better lines. I just forgot about them.
     
  20. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    I guess we can say that vintage owners don't hate the modern ferraris. We're just uninspired by them.

    Time ago ferrari was really somehting different to everything else out there. Today comapred to a corvette a ferrari is certainly more luxury. Its performance is arguably no better, and we can debate the design of the two. ..

    I would say the company that still builds thriling latin exotics is ironicaly lamborghini. A others have said if you want to go paddle v12 exotic an aventador is where its at, all that latin drama and design. If youre into tracking your cars, and sunday romps a performante seems to be the top pick, and its v10 seems to beat the v8 turbo ferrari for driving fun.

    Imo nothign holds ferrari back except arrogance, purchase games, and a desire to sell branded cars over drivers cars, possibly they are lost lost in tech for techs sake. They have al the necessary pieces to make some drivers knockouts, but then as many observers of their current asthetics point out, they may have forgotten how...
     
  21. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Ever since the Miura, Lamborghini has been all about being "exotic" even if it is at a cost to performance. That's their brand, while Ferrari has been more about performance, and being "exotic" is a side-effect (or benefit, if you prefer).

     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Which had better performance a countach or a testrossa.

    in the past Lambo was the arriviste upstart, less comfortable. less well built, more tempramnetal and yes dramatic styling to ferraris classic beauty, both were exotic just in different ways.

    Today Ferrai v12s have better performance to an aventador, none of which is useable by either so imo the difference is irrelevant. In the smaller car the performance crown goes decisevly to lambo on road and track. The lambo is simply more alive more fun to drive on road, it has a more viceral motor, and its better on track too. They are both well built, while lambo still has exotic and inspired design, ferrari design has lost classic beauty and is more pedestrian, less clever.

    Ferrai still has brand cachet, but most ferrari and lambo buyers today are buying to show themselvs and others they made it. IMo if youre really a driver though, the lambos are simply more of what its about and the frraris more Gt..

    All the recent sucess of aston, lambo Mclaren, even amg, thats all marketplace and customers ferrari abandoned and alienanted or failed to capture. they sued to own that space entirely.

    maybe the seed was planted when Enzo pissed feruchio off, the first NSX and the Maclren f1 showed that otehrs could do it. But now after ferraris arrogance with customers and product of the past 20 years its now its now a volume reality. The market ferrari created and owned almost entirely has been invaded by by a number of nimbler, cleverer, faster, just as exotic and upscale competition, simply because ferrari left yawning gaps and aleinated customers.
     
  23. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I don't know about Testarossa vs. Countach, but I'm pretty sure the Boxer beat it most of the time. Even if the Countach won on paper, in the real world the Boxer generally outperformed it.

    And if you actually wanted to use either one, it was Boxer hands down.

     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Youre preaching to the choir here, i have had both, kept the boxer. The ct handles way better, was faster above 150. The BBi a far sweeter engine, more refined car all around and can be used on modern roads. You only need to shift a ct a few times to know for sure lambo made tractors. Its also really hard to see out the side and impossible to see what behind.

    A ct is art, a show car(undeveloped) that made it on to the road, the boxer is a real car. Porbably the same difference holds true with the miura vs daytona.

    The later Qv DD countach would blow a Tr away, but was still a crude show car for the road, really closer to well built kit car, than real developed car, but far more go kart like to steer than the softer ferrari. The Tr had ac that worked stereo etc but was way softer. the 512Tr came closer to Ct Dd performance.

    Fearris by the 90s were fully workable and useable, but had lost some of the magic, sadly this trend continued with each iteration untill imo the magic is largely gone for a road drive. However now Lambos are also fully developed but have kept more of the magic.
     
  25. roma1280

    roma1280 F1 Rookie
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    I personally love them all, some more than others obviously, but they are so incredibly different in every way and the experience is fun and unique in both old and new. The 2 Ferraris I am driving most at the moment are 56 years apart and they are both great.

    PS why stop at a 56 year spread, I think I would be as excited (if not more) to buy a 1950 166 barchetta as I would a 2018 Portofino. They would be vastly different and would be enjoyed differently but I have no doubt I would enjoy both immensely.
     
    Rossocorsa1 likes this.

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