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Do Vintage Fans Really Hate Modern Ferrari's?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rossocorsa1, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. Must see the interview we did with Piero Ferrari in Maranello! https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/news/297
  1. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    One of the reasons things have changed so drastically IMO has to do with how the buyers in the main markets for these cars actually categorised them. I'm betting most Italians - most Europeans, actually - especially back in the day, were/are looking for a Sports car and not an exotic car, a term commonly used by Americans to describe automobiles such as those made by Ferrari and Lamborghini. IMO this is a problem because they are two different things which can be combined, but are not necessarily so.

    This is mostly conjecture but where else is the "exotic" appeal so important, other than America?

    If you ask me, that's one of the reasons Ferrari went showier. For example, the Countach was a more 'exotic' car than a BB, but not necessarily a better driver, however it 'won' the exotic battle of the day. That wasn't really what Ferrari were going for in the 50's and 60's. The cars were beautiful, mostly as a matter of pride for the couachbuilders who designed them - and in some cases to the detriment of the driver's comfort - but they were primarily meant to offer an unparalleled driving experience. And the expertise to make that so came from racing programmes. As markets such as America became bigger, they could not ignore the way their customers saw these automobiles - "exotic" being the primary word used in the US to describe anything foreign and expensive. At some point it didn't matter as much if the thing was developed on track or not (see: Lamborghini). IMO it's a slippery slope from there...
     
  2. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Well I would argue that the asian market is also pushing the cars and styling in another direction.

    To your point though the Tr was essentialy a boxer redesigned to work for America in that it wasd esigned to meet legislation, have Ac that worked was reasonably comfortable and reliable with eye catchign if not beautiful styling. That was follwed by the 550 which once agin was more comfortable and easy to use, but maybe returned to more classic styling.

    In any event the process was cast, as each model became easier to use and faster on paper, they sold more. Styling wise it was hit of miss, but to drive in nay ttype of road enviroment the cars became more and more useable, essentialy bland and unintresting.

    While I think as do many others that the 458 was stylign knockout, it continued the bland to drive below 9/10ths trend. I have not driven a F12 which is bland to look at, the 599 I drove was pretty lame, I'll say it was stable in straight line at speed otherwise felt and turned like a truck.

    In any event this formula of bland to drive re easy and eye catchy styling has worked well for ferrari at 8k units. How do they sell more. i content that there is anotehr 20%-30% in sales building what we call real sportscars, a market and core custoimer segment ferrari has more or less abandoned, a segemt which will rebuild brand autheticity and should not be too expensive to service with product devlopment as they already have most of the key componants in production in one car or anotehr.

    Concurrent with that I really see the ferrari suv commign and why not. Luxury SUVs are the hottest segment of the luxury car biz and in theory ferrari is at the top of that list. Additionaly a suv today can perform on road beyond any rational attainable speed so for road conditions there is no real perfomance loss driving an suv over any of the otehr bland drivign ferrari products. The FF has not sold well and that platform jacked up into a super duper suv makes sense. All ferrari needs to do while they make the suv is make some hard core cars for the other end of the spectrum and their brand cred is safe. They can also keep doign what they are doing now which is filling in the middle with a series of paper fast Gt cars, aka 488 812 and portofino.

    For myself there are two ferraris I would considder, hard core sportscar, for weekend blasts and the track, and an suv for the road.
     
  3. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    You make great points. Youa re also in the fortunate position to enjoy the whole ctalogue, so each is appreciated in its own way.

    But then knowing the cars as you do, assuming you could only have one or two, a newer ferrari with the virtues of some old favorites but with modern power balance reliability etc may make sense, and ferrari does not build that car. Well maybe the Cs-speciule came close, but while a few of those may be driven in anger, those specials are now really only built for collectors.
     
  4. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Now, yes, but it wasn't the Asian (continental) markets that caused that shift, which happened in the 1970's. Japan had been buying Ferrari's for a while but they are quite unique in that they have utmost respect for the coachbuilding culture. It's different from the continental asian markets, who for the most part want the latest and showiest. It's no fluke that Japanese collectors bought so many of the classic cars back in the 80's when they were considerably cheaper, and why the SP division was basically started at Ferrari to satisfy a Japanese customer who wanted a rebodied, curvier F430.

    Anyway, I still think the shift to referring to these cars as "exotic" had a long way in making them have to look a specific way. Ferrari held out as long as they could, I think, and say what you will about the man but LdM put up a good fight when he first took the helm, but the success of the F40 I think (or maybe even the Testarossa before it) opened up that Pandora's box for good...
     
  5. Wheels1

    Wheels1 Formula 3

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    #80 Wheels1, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    I would agree with your sentiments. I love the idea of Ferrari creating a product line of simple, hardcore, non-tech sports cars (if they can in today's regulatory environment). However, keep in mind that many vintage fans who long for the "old days" or grand GT drivers (which is also part of the Ferrari vintage bloodline), not hardcore sports car fans.




     
  7. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

    May 14, 2017
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    This thread reminds me a previous thread I posted not too long ago. I think it is a very relevant question for this section. The link is below, though you can easily answer the question here. The thread topic was:

    How Would You Design The Ferrari Model Lineup?

    If it were your choice, what would the Ferrari model lineup consist of? Here are my choices:

    - 12 cylinder GT (coupe and very limited spider variant)
    - 12 cylinder mid-engine (GTB only, not supercar)
    - 8 cylinder mid-engine (GTB and spider variants)
    - 8 cylinder GT convertible
    - Decennial supercar (highly limited - GTB, spider and race variants)
    - Occasional, limited models as deemed appropriate, such as:
    - Totally analog, three-pedal, gate-shifted models (raw, simple, pure)
    - Commeorative models (tribute cars, special anniversary cars, etc.)
    - 6 cylinder models (occasional)

    Let's see your thoughts.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific/556032-how-would-you-design-ferrari-model-lineup.html
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    I am far more concerned with how they drive than how they look. By your reckonign then I guess a 308 and Boxer are exotic.

    I have no issue with what some might call exotic as long as its still classy latin design. My issue and maybe these are betetr words is with hey look at me designs, that was certainly the Tr. The F12 is to me meh, the cali is a tragedy , it could have been designed by Gm in the 90s so disporportianate is it.

    Some people love dinos, to me its 60s design language overlayed on a mid engined car.

    the 458 to me has great proportions, is exotic without being overdone. The 488 is an unfirtnate "update" of the shape going for hey look at me and losing design coherance. its a bitsa design.

    I think though what sergio is referign to is that the cali is a travesty, all disproportiante but he is going to sucker in people with the portofino as it has better proportions and more classic surfacing.

    The 250 gtos is not a particularily pretty or well proportioned car, its just works great. The 250 gto is to the swb what the F40 is to the 288 ie cars designed for pure raw function disregarding styling. I woudl say on the F50 they lost the plot style wise. The enzo was at elast bold but sadly disjointed. the Laf is a little ,long looking but great in the flesh especialy in dark blue.

    Yes modern ferraris may be somewhat more exotic looking, but that does not have toi be bad design. We can see great design in the 208 2888 BB 456 and 458. As is said mores the worry about the way they drive.
     
  9. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Looks good to me, somehtuign for everybody and can probably be done off 3 existing platforms and 2 powertrains as exist now..
     
  10. swift53

    swift53 F1 Rookie
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    I do not "hate" modern Ferrari, Porsche, lamborghini, et al.

    I am deviating from the topic, but all we have, is pre '73.

    Can go on forever, 2CV, Piper 170, Comanche, Riva Aquarama, Stearman, P-51, and on and on.

    Carburators, one or six. Distributors, seat belt on a few, nothing electronic. Air bags?
    Big Gulp holders, is it really essential? Cars do not have bumpers any more, just a big piece of plastic, so you can parallel park and bump. All the cars in Europe look like crap because of this novelty. Have to repaint both ends once a year...

    My wife has a 2016 Jeep 4 door, still cannot manage the damn thing.
    Got to go to school again, no way. Can drive it, but very basically, just to and fro.

    Although, it is impossible to deny the 'out of this world' of the new fantastic cars, Ferrari or any of the other supercar makers. Will not buy any other "new" sports car, specially with electronics.
    Talk about 'planned electronic obsolescence'.

    Drove a 935, a long time ago on a racetrack, and it was so fast, a monster car with only 750 HP, (most common nowadays), made just for that specific purpose. Probably anything 'super' something or other, is now faster, civilized, but not for me.

    I am "Zoomed by the Past" (forgot who said that) and that is how it will remain.

    Have a plywood 600lb Raveau with a 150HP Merc 'Tower of power', now that, is scary.
    Succumbed to family 'pressure', so there is a modern leviathan that weighs 4500 lbs dry.
    The other day the electronic dash, was having 'issues', touch screen, yuck.

    Definitely, cars, pickups, and any fast airplane for other mundane purposes, absolutely, cannot live in the past with everything...Imagine flying on a DC3 to Europe...naaahhh

    Regards, Alberto
     
  11. Simon1965

    Simon1965 Karting

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    I am lucky enough to have a 1965 330GT and a 1997 550. Both are great but completely different the 330 is almost alive When you get out after a long trip everything including the luggage in the boot smells of partly burnt gasoline. It pops and burbles like one a car with carbs can. It's a beast to park with no power steering but it's small

    The 550 is precise and instant in its power It's more comfortable inside and is an awesome big of kit.

    I love them both and will keep them both
     
  12. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    Well, I'm actually looking into the prospect for the 75th Anniversary of D-day. Can't wait.
     
  13. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Yes I know youre right, and Sergio is delivering with the portofino..
     
  14. swift53

    swift53 F1 Rookie
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    Timo, did you pack your parachute?

    Regards, Alberto
     
  15. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    👍
    I've also been practicing long distance swimming, just in case. 😎
    There are a quite a lot of DC-3s/C-47s and other vintage planes from U.S. planning to attend along with many from Europe and UK. Should be an epic event.
     
  16. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    I like most Ferrari's, even the modern ones but I tend to admire their technological tour de force than be in love with their lines. I hate a few (349, Mondiale...), I love the 1960's GT's and I'm learning to appreciate the 1950's cars and some of their challenging bodies. I think the Touring Barchetta's are fantastic for example.

    I think the last really stunning Ferrari must be the 275 GTB.
     
  17. Mark020

    Mark020 Rookie
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    Hate is a big word but the last good looking Ferrari's for me were the F40 and 355. Can't be bothered by more modern stuff.
     
  18. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
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    Walter.....I did a little bit of modifying to make my 60s car more relevant and useable. On my GTC I did a complete mechanical resto....full engine rebuild, all new wiring n' fuse boxes, complete suspension rebuild and more. It gave me the opportune time to make the car better. Big alternator, Spal fans for cooling, larger a/c condensing, Sanden a/c compressor, MB a/c blower motor, fast window re-wire, slight window tint and a few other improvements making the car a better driver without compromising the essence of the great experience of this classic vintage Ferrari. And when you look at it other than the Sanden compressor you don't see anything out of place.

    A couple of years ago I drove 821 miles between homes in FL and NC on a 100 degree humid summer day. The car stayed cool and so did I. The 330 is really a very user friendly car to drive. After having 16 different Fcars over the last 40 years I can say the GTC has always been and remains my favorite. My first was my only car for years where I put over 100k miles on it through thick and thin. After selling my first GTC in 85 I bought my second in 04. It is still the fav and the last car I would sell.

    So in my own way I think I can have my cake and eat it too.....lol!!
     
  19. aero

    aero Formula Junior

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    You are right on it, this year we went for a more modern sports car where also my wife would find herself comfortable in. We went for a V8 Vantage. When we bought it we also took a visit to the neighbours, same dealership also sells Ferrari. To be honest these cars did very little for both of us. Classic Ferrari (Dino GT4) stays though. That design is so good, also one of the last cars they made with a body that was filled with lead to get rid of all the panel gaps.
     
  20. 15765

    15765 Karting

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    My problem with the newer Ferraris is that the styling Department has resorted to copying other cars like Hyundai or Honda that have some styling gimmick on them that gets some attention so they stick something similar on the next Ferrari model. I can't wait to see a new Ferrari with a Camry or Lexus Grille.

    Chuck
     
  21. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

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    Hi,

    Sorry if this is OT, but like this one?

    Raveau Restoration: A Classic Runabout Returns - boats.com

    Yes, that is scary. Carb'd two-stroke straight six. I have a friend who used to do offshore racing (with podium finishes) but you could never get me in one of those things. I could watch and listen however, from a distance. :)

    Define modern, well you already did. I do have a 1995 456 GT, but although it does not have carburrettors I don't think it's that modern. No airbags, cruise, etc. and of course it is manual 6-sp V12. IMHO it is very classic in many ways. But of course I am biased, if I didn't like it I would not have bought it in the first place.

    I don't hate any modern cars, most of them just don't speak to me. Unlike the classic cars which look and smell much more interesting.

    Cheers,

    Pekka T.
    Fin.

    Ps. Just watched and heard a DC3 take off, disappear for a while and come back and land yesterday evening, twice! Fantastic sound, but I haven 't been onboard, yet! :D
     
  22. Manel Baró

    Manel Baró Karting

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  23. 635CSI

    635CSI Formula 3
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    I was originally going to say that new and old are just SO different that there is no comparison and an affection for one has nothing to do with the other. But yet there is that thing that is the identity of the brand, Ferrari know this and how to make money out if, hence the 70th thing. My wife has a Cali T (as well as co-owning a GTE and a 575). A much maligned car by the purists but I must admit have a ball when she lets me drive it. I guess a Jag XF would have been comparable and cheaper but it would't quite be the same as a car from Maranello.
     
  24. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Rookie

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    #99 Shark01, Sep 5, 2017
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    Rediculous statement, the Lamborghini V-12 line is usually more than a match for most Ferraris of a corresponding time period. For example, my late model Diablo would take out a 550 in most performance measurements. You could debate looks, comfort (every car has better AC than a classic Lamborghini), useability, reliability and so on between the two, but give the brand some credit.

    Hard to like newer Ferraris when the dealers act like such entitled jackasses....

    Here in Houston, the Lamborghini and McLaren dealers want your business,haven't stepped into the FOH showroom in over a decade now after being treated so badly over trying to buy one of those crappy first gen Maseratis.
     
  25. randkin

    randkin Formula Junior

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    Yes but the Lusso was perhaps the prettiest of all the Ferrari ever (?) IMO. So to hold up all new Ferraris against that car is not fair. But I agree the earlier cars had styling that seemed much more pleasing to the eye than the newer cars. That said I am so impressed that Ferrari can get such aero dynamics without hanging all matter of rear spoilers which are certainly functional but really destroy the visual experience for me.
     

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