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Do Vintage Fans Really Hate Modern Ferrari's?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rossocorsa1, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
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    Just MHO - based on my experiences, many older Ferraris from the 50's and 60's were truly better performance-wise than most of their contemporary counterparts, sometimes by large margins. Looks can be subjective, but it's fairly easy to get into 2 different cars from that era and determine which is the better performer.

    Contrast with today, when pretty much every manufacturer makes a performance car in large quantities, all with capabilities that will far exceed the average driver's ability to control it - and all masked behind a fortress of driving aids which prevent the average driver from knowing it. In this environment, it becomes much harder do differentiate between marques. Most special edition cars today are primarily "special" because they are limited in number, and maybe have one or two extra holes in the sheetmetal, and maybe a few software tweaks. Didn't get on the list this time? No problems, just wait a year and another "special edition" Gucci Bag will become available.

    Anecdotally, I was noticing the large number of new Lamborghinis which "burbled" on deceleration during Monterey Week, and was told this was due to the software injecting extra fuel into the manifold to create the sound. Contrast that to some old carbureted cars, which made the same sound because - that's just the sound that they make.
     
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  2. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

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    Seriously Tom?
    A friend was showing me his late model Porsche. I thought it was pretty darn funny when he pressed a button on the dash and the Porsche got louder.

    john

     
  3. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
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    Marchionne comments:

    Asked about whether Ferrari would consider doing "continuation cars"—vintage designs re-released with modern improvements:
    The answer is yes. What I struggle with is the use of the term "continuation car." When I was young and foolish and I had no money, I bought myself the carcass of a Jaguar E-Type. It was a rust bucket. I spent all my university savings trying to fix the car. I never did, and I finally sold it to recover at least part of my investment. I couldn’t figure out why it was never re-launched, because that was one of the most beautiful cars God ever made. The fact that they’ve made a limited edition of the E-Type now is encouraging.

    I struggle with the whole notion of reinventing [the Ferrari 250 GTO] and relaunching it. That’s a tough gig. I think there’s an opportunity here to take symbols of Italian design from the Ferrari lineup, and use them as a platform on which to do something that resembles it. Hopefully we’ll be able to show you one of those things in the next four years.

    We’re not gonna bet the bank on this, because living off the spoils of your past ain’t a happy place to be. I think you can do it once in awhile, but I don’t think you should make it a habit. I think the mind should deliver new and fresh designs all the time.
     
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  4. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    What is the make of that generic-looking red car if front of the blue Ferrari in the garage?
     
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  5. sam231

    sam231 Formula Junior
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    My two cents - I am both a vintage human and vintage car fan. I bought my latest daily driver 3 years ago - a 2006 Volvo V70R wagon, which I agree makes me a dinosaur. I appreciate vintage more than modern cars because they are more engaging in tactile stimulation, sight and sound. I do not mind the occasional $$$ spent repairing my Ferrari or Volvo because it is the price of preservation of what I consider a classic car. Although I have trouble distinguishing the identities of modern super cars (I suspect because they have all been designed in a wind tunnel), I do appreciate their performance. Living in the Northeast with its weather surprises if I had to buy a modern Ferrari my guess would be the FF - a trunk and 4 wheel drive comes in handy. :)
     
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  6. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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  7. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    I'm curious to hear thoughts/observations from the "vintage" crowd on the new 488 Pista.
     
  8. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie
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    I don't have a strong opinion on it really. It's a more focused evolution of the 488 which is in turn an evolution of the 458. When the base 458 was launched it had more of the wow factor because of the change in styling and jump in performance over the 430.

    I do think though that the truly great Ferrari designs get more appealing as they get older. I liked the 458 when it came out but now I find it a bit meh to look at. Conversely I wasn't a fan of the 360 at first but now I really like the design especially in CS form.

    Whether or not the Pista will be long term classic in terms of value will largely depend on how many Ferrari make and if track focused road cars stay in fashion?
     
  9. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    I agree with Matthew. It's not much of a switch from either the 488 or even the 458. It's a bit tarted up (for lack of a better term) with some new dips and swoops for the track, which looks appropriate to it's (intended/supposed/not bloody likely for 99.9% of them) purpose, but nothing to get very worked up over.
     
  10. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    I'm an ardent "vintage" guy, but can't say "hate" modern Ferraris. I just view them with same indifference than any and all modern cars, be it a LaF, KIA , M-B, mini van or pick-up truck.
    I find the appearance of majority of modern cars, incl. exotics, somewhat hilarious. Most look like constipated angry birds or reptiles (also constipated) or some mixed breed of both.
    What I do dislike (or "hate"?) is discussions about modern cars in web forum sections dedicated to vintage cars. ;)
     
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  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
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    Well. I appreciate your thoughts. On the other hand, nobody forced you to respond. It’s just an interesting topic.
     
  12. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh Formula 3
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    In the recent Forza, Sheehan talks about the new F12 in the buyer's guide. He basically says it's a great car but he doesn't know how anyone is going to fix them when they go out of warranty. We recently had a 599 in the shop that restored my car. The trunk latch was broken so it would not open. You need to take the entire panel off in back of the seats, then get someone with a small hand to reach in and grab the emergency release! It took about three hours to open the trunk. That's really dumb!
     
  13. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    My concern is the gazillion ECU's in the modern cars. What happens in 50 years when you need a new "trunk latch ECU" :) (or "whatever" ECU)? With few cars produced (relative to any "mainstream" car manufacturer), there won't be enough demand to keep making those parts and whatever was available NOS will eventually dry up. Maybe by then we can just print ECU's when we need them, but I really wonder what it will be like maintain a modern Ferrari, with all the specialized electronics, 50 years from now.
     
  14. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    I think your points are valid but if we’ve learned anything from the evolution in communications and technology, the marketplace will provide a solution. It may seem unlikely today, but it will be very reasonable in the future. For example, who would have thought it would be easier to restore a 250 SWB today than it was 40 years ago? Today, because of technology and communications (this forum being one example) we know who the best restorers are, resources for parts, fabricators, etc.
     
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  15. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    While I also dislike (self-loathe ?) continuing my own contributions to discussion like this, perhaps your concerns are overlooking the very possible reality that many of us won't necessarily be around 50 years from now and that the human driving/operating cars of today (and earlier) on public roads will likely be legislated to bare minimum by then, if allowed at all.
    Besides, there will always be new generations of individuals able to "innovate(?)" solutions to ailing "ECU"s (whateverthefncktheyareordo).
     
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  16. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    It's not too surprising to me that we can restore an SWB easily today because it's primarily craftsmanship that is required. I don't know about all the little ECU's on modern cars -- on one hand they are too trivial and niche to have a strong enough demand for anybody to replicate them, but on the other hand they are complicated enough that they probably are not easy to replicate. We will see where technology goes, maybe it will be easy, but I don't know given the electrical complexity and the exact fit needed for the contacts/connectors/board. You could print part of that, even with today's technology, but I don't know about recreating the silicon chips. You'd need the firmware also, though that would be easy to extract from a working part.

    I have no idea whether I'm right or dead wrong about the ECU concern, but it's something that's always been in the back of my mind.
     
  17. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

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    I wonder if back in the 1960's the aficionados of the Bugattis and the Hispanos had the same sort of disdain for the SWB.

    john
     
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  18. TheMayor

    TheMayor Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #118 TheMayor, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    This reminds me of one of those "get off my lawn kid" posts.

    All high performance cars have their advantages and disadvantages.

    My 246 Dino Gt smelled of gas and burnt oil, had no AC but felt like the heater was on all the time, had a starter switch that a monkey could hot wire, had no safety equipment at all, had no radio, had electric windows that would go up in about 60 seconds, had a trunk that would cook a frozen pizza, had no side seat bolsters on the seats, had a gearbox that would grind in 2nd until warm, had headlights that worked as well as 2 candles, overheated in freeway stop and go traffic, and was slower than today's average SUV... but was wonderful at the same time.
     
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  19. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2015
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    This is a good point about the electronics/ECU etc..

    I just had to but a new lap top ( 2007 vintage XP ! :eek:) that was becoming too troublesome to fix etc..

    Does make you wonder what will it be like in +/- 20 years when a lot of today's hi tech stuff will be starting to look obsolete /hard to fix?
     
  20. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    In my mind, they are all great in different ways for different purposes. Whether I would prefer a modern car like a 488, or a classic like a 328, or a vintage front-engine V12 is based entirely on the specifics of each individual drive.

    For pure driving enjoyment in most scenarios, I'd probably rank it 1) Classic; 2) Vintage; 3) Modern. In many ways, my Mondial 3.2 was the best driving car I ever owned. The engine was docile and powerful (given the time period) -- I used to be continually amazed that it ran that well when the technology was decades old and I actually enjoyed driving it more as time went on rather than growing bored of it. The car itself was the perfect blend between comfort and rawness -- it was quiet when it needed to be and totally engaging when you pushed it without beating the crap out of you with no space and no A/C. Vintage is just as engaging, but slightly less versatile since they can't be tossed around the twisties as effortlessly as the mid-engine cars. Modern cars are great for long distances and in terms of overall performance, but not as directly engaging to me.

    Of course, I'm sure to many others, the huge power advantage of modern makes them far more engaging. In the end, preferences really boil down to what each individual wants out of a car (and those "wants" can vary a lot based upon the specific circumstances of each individual drive).
     
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  21. afwrench

    afwrench Formula Junior

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  22. afwrench

    afwrench Formula Junior

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    My 599 has the E trunk release under the lift out tray next to the E brake handle. Access in 5 seconds.Mike
     
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  23. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    Funny - I have a “classic” 1989 328 GTB and a new 2017 488 GTB. I love both, though I must say, it baffles me when I wonder what they were thinking on a few of the peculiarities of the 328. For example, if one of the dash bulbs burn out, you literally have to remove the entire instrument cluster to change it. Granted, fit isn’t a vintage Ferrari, but it makes me laugh. So, I would actually argue that many things have been improved since then.
     
  24. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
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    cars have without a doubt improved since the 60s and 70s .. and that is exactly the point driving a vintage Ferrari or any vintage car has a certain smell and feel and truly mechanical sounds that no homogenized modern car can have ... most vintage owners keep the cars for years and could care less about the mileage on the odometer.... They are a work of vintage art all of them .... while I only own one vintage Ferrari I own many vintage cars of other brands and at one time had maybe 35 or more ... Thing is modern cars are big for sure and because of the good old government regulations they basically all run similiar the parts are shared by many other brands (example the transmission).... but on the other hand I really like my modern Fcars for there purpose they are fast comfortable and still great looking....and very very fast .. in fact the vintage cars can be driven flat out without breaking the speed limit in many cases (nice ) while my F12 can barely get to red line before breaking most speed limits...
     
  25. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    I agree with all, though not fully with the last sentence. In the 330, it's actually pretty challenging to rev it out anywhere. First gear is good for a little over 50 mph and second gear redline is just a shade under 80mph. In town, you can barely explore first gear, and on the highway, you pretty much have to stop pushing it after second gear. Acceleration is not technically "modern car fast", but it is surprisingly good and, when combined with the limits of the 60's chassis/steering, the adrenaline rush from driving the car aggressively is not too different from pushing a modern car to the limit.
     

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