Do you consider team orders cheating?

Nope. It's their team - let them run it anyway they want to.

 

I say that team orders are not cheating, but you still should not be forced by your team to pull over for the lead team like Rubens had to.

 

Team orders have always been part of F1. Far moreso in the past, where a driver would be expected to turn his car over to the leading driver if his failed.

Imagine how 2006 might have finished up, if Massa had turned his car over to Schumi after the engine failure in Japan.

This stupid "no team orders" rule was a direct result of Austria '02 - when Rubens pulled over at the last second to let Schumi past.

Personally, I didn't have any problem with how obvious it was -- Rubens had done a good job that weekend, and Ferrari was giving him credit, if not the win.

My problem with Austria '02 was that it was way too early in a season where Ferrari had a dominant package to be playing team orders. With that package, to settle for getting Schumi the WDC was aiming far too low. Rubens needed the points more than Schumi did.

The "no team orders" rule is pretty much understood to mean "don't make it obvious" -- another way that FIA is more worried about F1 as "entertainment" than as a sport: WWF1. It doesn't matter if it's fake, as long as you can suspend your disbelief and "pretend". Pfft.

That's another one of FIA's rules that needs to be tossed. (Like the one set of tires rule, or those moronic pop-off valves they tried during the turbo era.)

And, even with the "spec" ECUs, I doubt they've really seen the last of traction control.

 

A team exists to reach a goal. Coordination is the means. Orders the method.

 

there are two issues:

1) Are team rules an unfair strategy?

2) Are team orders against the interests of the sport?

The answer to the first is no, in my opinion. It is a team sport as well as an individual championship. I may not like it but each team is within its discretion to exercise whatever strategy it feels is in the best interests of the team. I personally feel that any driver who needs #1 status written into his contract (Schumacher, anyone?) is ultimately a coward.

The answer to the second is yes. I was disgusted with Austria 2002. I felt cheated by such a manufactured finish and I felt that such an orchestrated finish was an insult to the notion of competition and to the fans who spent good money to enjoy real racing. A lot of folks here have criticized NASCAR for manufacturing excitement by late-race yellow flags for "debri on the track" but they have no problem supporting Ferrari orchestrating a finish.

So the question is, do you want to watch a team sport or an individual race? I don't give a flying rat's arse about the WCC and I don't care about team strategy. I suspect the vast majority of F1 fans fall into this camp. I want to see the best drivers in the world driving the best cars on the planet and letting the best man win. If you can't win on the track, you shouldn't be able to win because of your contract.

 

I think there are really two questions here:

The basic question is, should team orders be considered cheating? Strictly speaking the answer can only be yes. The rules say there should be no 'team orders' so if a team operates 'team orders' it is breaking the rules and therefore effectively 'cheating'.

The implied question is, should the team orders rule exist? I believe not. It is a team sport and the two cars and their drivers should be allowed to work as a team. The FIA is, I think, happy for team orders to operate as long as it isn't done blatantly, which is perhaps why Ferrari were not required to answer any questions on the subject last year. However, the FIA turning a blind eye to breaking of the rules is not a particularly sensible way to go about things - who knows which rules they will enforce and which they won't? It would, in my view, be clearer and more sensible to scrap the rule altogether.

 

+1 Max likes grey area rules make em up as you go along if you like, or clip the wings type.

 

I tend to agree in principle, but in practice there is a big problem as was illustrated last year. Does Ferrari pull FM over so that KR can win the WDC or do they let them get on with it allowing LH to win the WDC? ANY team in that position is going to do the former, it doesn't make any sense not to. I think you could only have genuine individual racing if manufacturers had only one car - or there was no WDC .

 

If you have two cars on a team and only one pit, you have to choose who comes in when. No way you can be unbiased in that decision...too many variables.

So "no team orders" is an exercise in futility. and it forces teams to make up excuses for doing what needs to be done to win. The team orders ban is just silly. It tries to give the appearance of all out competition when in fact it is not only impractical it is in reality impossible to do no matter what the rules are.

 

I think team orders are cheating, quite obviously. I mean, the rules say you can't do it. So if a team breaks the rules to enhance their standings in the WDC/WCC championship, then that's cheating.

Having said that, it's a completely stupid rule and should be deleted immediately. To expect teams to spend hundreds of millions and not do all they can to win is like asking teams not to use all their engine power or to purposely sacrifice their aero. I also think creating a rule that everyone knows is and will be broken is their height of a PR scam. It's just so Mosley can say he did something without really doing anything at all. It also gives him the power to selectively enforce it as he seems to like to do with rules.

Cheating - yes absolutely.

Bad rule - yes absolutely.

 

not in every sense it isnt

the WCC is a team event -designers/builders/mechanics/2 x driver etc (ok ive obviously missed out some stages but u get the picture)

but the WDC is a team event in a different fashion - initially its the same eg designers/builders/mechanics - but the driver is on his own after that.

 

Don't have a 'rule' you cannot enforce.

The only thing 'cheating' about it is 'cheating' one driver from some possible higher finishes.

Still, it's up to this 'second' driver to decide if he wants to deal with it, either in contract negotiations, or by disobeying team orders on the track. Either way, it's the second driver that has to deal with it, not us.

 

How can this question alone be answered? What is the definition of cheating? To me, cheating is an intentional attempt to circumvent rules.

If you are asking if a team gives orders to break the rules, is that cheating, well not necessarily, expecially if it is done out in the open. It may just be an unintentional violation of the rules. But if it is just team orders, for whatever reason, no rules are broken, then it is neither cheating nor rule breaking. What did I just say?

 

Until Coulthard made that remark about letting Hakki win, noone really cared.

 

+1

+1 nuff said.

 

+1 Why are they called 'a team' if they can't work together? Stupid rule!
Nathan

 

I think you've put your finger on the problem, Nick. F1 is trying to be a team sport and an individual sport at the same time and that can't work satisfactorily. If every driver was trying to beat every other driver it would be fine, but if there are team orders and one driver is being 'gifted' points by his team mate it's not a level playing field.

I don't know if there are any (ageing) chess fans here who remember the late Bobby Fischer as a young player criticising the Soviet players for 'cheating'. He claimed they tended to agree short draws when playing one another but fought hard to win against the non-Soviet players. In effect the Soviets were playing as a team while the others were playing as individuals and that gave them a big (unfair?) advantage.

 

In answer on the initial question:

No. Teamorders are a usefull instrument in team-tactics and team-tactics are a necessary factor in the sport itself.

I also believe that people who were suprised with Austria 2002, haven´t been paying attention. Ferrari wasn´t racing anyone that day and Ferrari made it perfectly clear they wanted to clinch the driver title as soon as possible. So, with Ferrari running so far ahead, being ordered to take it easy (so Schumacher wasn´t allowed to challenge Rubens either) it was never going to be Rubens to win it. The only reason why this became a big deal is because Rubens just had to make so much drama about it. I would have sacked him on the spot.

 

I don't have a problem with team orders, but I do feel that implementation of the orders should be open to scrutiny. Some of the orchestrated race finishes created by Ferrari over the years were a little tacky. It would be better for a driver to just allow his teammate by on the track than create these blatantly fake overtaking scenarios we have seen in the past. So teams should be allowed the team orders aspect of strategy--why not?

 

The short answer is: because the WDC should be awarded to the driver who 'wins' the most points, not the one who is 'gifted' the most points. Team orders don't materially change the outcome of the WCC but they do of the WDC, which is supposed to be won by the best driver/car combination.

 

yes it is cheating, but the FIA looks the other way... Apparently it ok for certain teams to manipulate the outcome of a GP & WDC. I know that team orders are for the greater good of the team but it's still cheating, and can be completely embaressing and unfair for the driver who drove his heart out and is forced to let his teammate by simply because he has more point towards WDC... How can someone celebrate a win that was gifted to them? truly one of the low points in F1.




ps.....I know that most of you voted no, only because Ferrari is the biggest user/abuser of team orders

I wonder what you all would think if was McLaren that used team orders regularly....hmmm

 

if a team pull of a Rubens-Ferrari thing, then yes, it's cheating and pathetic. but if they made the call to the 2nd driver to help out the main driver, then no. it's tactics.

also, it's up to a team to call for an order, to remain in current positions, ala monaco last year for the Mclarens.

 

Getting data on your competitors car is also a useful instrument in winning, but that is also against the rules.

So breaking the rules is OK as long as it's to help you win?

non sequitor.

Using team orders is clearly cheating. I don't see how anyone can say it's not. I'll agree all day it's a stupid rule but breaking it is obviously cheating.

 

+1

It's written in the FIA rules how can you answer NO to the question..