Does a K&N air filter do anything for a 348? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Does a K&N air filter do anything for a 348?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Husker, Mar 10, 2004.

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  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    Well we all know that your car has to be tuned for free flowing input and freeflowing output. If you free up one end without changing the other it is likely there will be no result. That said I have about as free a stock setup you can have on the butt end. In the highest state of tune, I run straight challenge exhaust and testpipes and no air injection rails hardware. I hope to get my car on the dyno soon. If someone has a KN or even an old KN they want to send me I would blow it out and try one vs the other on the dyno and report. After all even an old KN is supposed to be better than my stock paper element right? FWIW, I have read about those who in the 348 have run no filter vs stock filter with no difference. Of course supporters of KN say that the filter smooths out the airflow and makes just the right amount of turblence for proper fuel mixing...blah blah blah.... I want to see some dyno numbers too!
     
  2. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,150
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    See Russ's post above. 10 horsepower loss with stock filter. 5 horsepower loss with K&N.

    I once read that the Otto cycle engine was an "illconceived air pump" and that anything you could do to improve the air flow, (in or out) would help.

    chris
     
  3. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    At least in my 3.2, on the dyno, the paper element cost about 10 hp and the K&N cost about 5 hp over no air cleaner. Would imagine the 348 would be similar.
    best
    rt

    Chris....
    RT said :
    NOPE not good enough. You can't guess at 3.4 motor with a 3.2. also need to have back to back dyno pulls and a proper engine set-up.
     
  4. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    Whatever.
    The point is the K&N has less resistance per unit area than the stock paper filter. Flow is inversely proportional to resistance. No one's getting any K&N commissions, just repeating the concept that more air delivered to the engine is likely to get more hp. You pay your money and take your choice. :)
     
  5. eschoendorff

    eschoendorff Rookie

    Apr 12, 2004
    47

    K&N airfilters, when improperly oiled, have been known to gunk up the Mass Airflow Sensors on other cars. That being said...
    There are other brands of "high flow" air filters on the market. Does anyone have any experience with the Greenstuff or Amsoil brand airfilters? They supossedly work on the same principle as the K&N, but I am curious as tyo wether they are actually better...
    -Ed
     
  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,574
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Okay here's my two cents. The K&N does allow more air into the engine. It does it by having larger holes in the filter to allow more air to pass through it. With larger holes you also increase to posibility to allow more dirt to enter. What they did to offset this was to add oil to the filter. The dirt particles are supposed to stick to the oil and still allow the extra air to pass through. With a normal filters, several layers of porous paper are used to trap the dirt. Because of the multiple layers of paper, the air gets slowed down. The more air you can get in and out of the engine the more power it will make. Since the K&N allows more air to pass through, it should make more power. However the problem comes when the filter is over oiled, or not oiled enough. If it is over oiled the excess oil gets sucked through the intake system. If it is not oil enough then more dirt gets through. If you are worried about oil getting in the intake forget it. You get oil in the intake like it or not. Even with a paper filter. There are two hoses, one on either side, that are connected to the bottom of the tubes that run from the mass air flow sensors (MAFS) to the throttle bodies. These hose are connected to the oil tank. Because of these hose you get oil vapor in the intake just before the throttle bodies and after the MAFS. I know for a fact that this oil gets into the intake. I took the tubes off the throttle bodies and found oil and dirt in them. I cleaned them out as well as the throttle bodies. I also have removed the intake plenum and cleaned out crap inside of it. So you will get oil in the intake no matter what. However you DO NOT want oil getting on the MAFS. There are very fine wires that measure the amount of air passing through the sensor, and if they get oil on them they will not be able to get the proper readings needed to adjust the fuel ratio properly. If your readings are off it will also effect the emissions. Since the K&N is before the MAFS there is a chance that the excess oil will get on these wires. Living in California I have to deal with the strict state smog laws, so I decided not to use a K&N, just don't wanna chance it. The whole purpose of a filter is to keep dirt out of the engine while allowing air to get in. If you are looking for power, alot of race teams use foam filters. Since they are on a track they don't need to worry about emissions, but power. So I say stick with a paper filter, and keep a foam filter handy if you are going to the track.
     
  7. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    10,460
    Wayne, NJ
    Full Name:
    Clyde E. McMurdy
    Is that taking a bath with/without the car? :)

    Spongebath for both? Bubbles for both?

    Don't you find the wash 'n wax gives your skin an unwanted sheen?

    Inquiring minds don't really want to know :)
     
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  8. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    I had K&N on my 328i for 5 years and never had any issue with the car or smog check. For my car (360), K&N does not make an air filter at least not till a few months ago. I ended up with BMCs and I can feel a difference with them. At high RPMs it whistles and at idle you can stick your hand on the intake grill and feel the air flow through your fingers. I have dyno'ed my car and looked at the fuel/air mixture and it looks normal, I get about 340hp at the wheel.

    Cheers,
     
  9. F456 V12

    F456 V12 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2004
    4,727
    Coto de Caza
    Full Name:
    Christian
    I just installed two (2) K&N's on my 456...Little better "sucking sound" and better fit and seal...but other than that, I can't tell any difference. I'm at sea level and 62 degrees F

    MB
     
  10. davey_jones

    davey_jones Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2002
    781
    wherever it's sunny
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Was that you with the video camera at the bottom of my drive the other day?

    In all honesty, in ref to the k&n filters, my new philosophy on ferrari ownership is "if ain't broke, don't fix it". After installing the challenge exhaust, and redying entire interior, I'm stopping on the mods. I wouldn't be able to hear that sucking sound anyway... :)

    dave
    indy
     
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  11. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    Wow, redying your entire interior! You must be brave. Things like air filter and exhaust system are probably the simplest upgrade or in the mind of others downgrade you could do on the car. I have always been abeliever that more air equals better combustion hence more power. Now if the radiator resevoir were else where and there were enough shielding from the cats and the muffler around the air intake I suppose there could be more power gained.
    I am really surpised at some comments about debrie or sand getting through the filter, wouldn't the filter company have a liability if they let the foriegn material other than air to get through?

    Cheers,
    Matt
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    All air filters let through particles. In fact, in a strange coincidence, a brand new air filter allows more particles to traverse its filtering mechanism than that same filter with 5000 miles on it. As they collect particles, they become clogged, and add resistance to the flow of air. The only question is how many particles and what is their distribution in size.

    That said, when you look at the area devoted to filtering, a F355 has about 2X the filter area as a C5 Corvette (e.g. two filters of similar area as the one filter on the C5). So, it makes sense that the vette can gain 2X more than the ferrari even though both cars make similar HP. But we are talking about gains that are right at the noise level in a dyno afterall (3-5HP) or right around 1% gains on a dyno that has 2%-3% accuracy.
     
  13. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    I agree with the gains and the fact that they are in the noise level. Nevertheless, they are gains with no major mod and pretty damn cheap. I have probably noticed a bit of difference only at speed vs. rpm and it is significant in 5th at redline. Used to be able to get it to 147 MPH tops and now to 155- 157 MPH.

    Cheers,
    Matt
     
  14. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    The K&N air filter changed your rev limiter? ;)
     
  15. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    Yes, funny! But I am serious, the speed vs. 8500 RPM has changed on the car.
     
  16. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
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    Matt F
    You have a change in speed vs. rpm? Gear ratios MUST be different somewhere.
    Perhaps the K&N increased the diameter of your tires slightly? ;)
     
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  17. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 30, 2001
    24,510
    Dallas, TX
    Full Name:
    Jim E
    Rob ran back to back dyno's on his 328, one w/ stock filter, one w/ K&N. As I recall, he got another 17hp w/ the K&N. It's all documented in the archives somewhere, do a search on the old board under "Norwood Dyno".
     
  18. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    #43 4i2fly, Apr 30, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I got mine done on Dyno Jet as well and got Max Power at 339.8 Max Torque at 246.3. It was very hot day, I would imagine if the weather was cooler the HP would have been a tad higher. It's about 10 HP more than what you would expect at the wheel. Here's a comparason with an F355:

    Matt
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