Does the Cream always rise to the Top ? (F1 related) | FerrariChat

Does the Cream always rise to the Top ? (F1 related)

Discussion in 'F1' started by FLATOUTRACING, Jan 28, 2005.

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  1. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
    Full Name:
    Jon K.
    There is an interesting article in this weeks Autosport that highlights some of the big breaks that many great racers recieved. The question is posed by Mark Huges, as to whether or not some racers may not have gotten where they are today if not for some circumstance, either of their own doing or someone else's.

    Interesting facts and speculations:

    1) Fact: the article points out that Norbert Haug likes to boast about Mercedes finding MS, but Hughes points out that Jochen Neerspach came up with the idea of a junior team before Haug was even there. In fact MS wasn't chosen directly because of his talent but because Neerspach decided against the time consuming task of scouting for drivers. He simply decied to take the top three drivers in German F3 Championship which turned out to be Wendlinger, Frentzen and MS (3rd place). The question is posed, had MS finished 4th that year where would he be now. He did not have huge sums of funding to overcome this shortfall had it occured.

    2) Speculation: GV beat the pants of Hunt in a 1976 Trois Rever Formula Atlantic race. Hunt went to McLaren and begged them to take a look. Teddy Mayer the team mamager gave GV a shot and he did well in his first race in an outdated car. However, for whatever reason, Mayer wasn't impressed and chose Patrick Tambay instead. It was only the saving grace (or pure genious) of Enzo who gave him a chance. Huges posts the question of where GV would have ended up had Hunt never raced against JV.

    3) Speculation: Senna may have chosen to stay in a lower formula an extra year because he faced a serious threat in Tommy Byrne in F3 in 1982. Senna had been in extensive talks with an F3 team and had pretty much declined an offer to stay in FF1600.....that is until Byrne secured a seat in F3 for 82. The Senna suddenly changed face and signed on for FF1600 for 82. In 83 Byrne was in F1 and Senna dominated the F3 field.

    Hughes goes on to praise the racers who made it to the top without huge sums of money (MS, Kimi, GV) and contrasts this with people like Senna and others whom Hughes believes had enough money to bankroll there way out of situations that were not beneficial to advancing their careers.

    MS and GV he points out had to take huge risks and lay it all out on the table.

    Intersting article that made me wonder how many Senna's and Schumacher's never made it to the big show because of circumstance (wonder who finished 4th in German F3 that season MS got picked) or lack of funds.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  2. ralessi

    ralessi Formula 3

    May 26, 2002
    1,093
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    Rikk
    Like you said at the end of your post, it is because of these circumstances that these people rose to the top, or had a chance at all (obviously). With all the people in the world today, there are going to be people that are just born with the skills and learning capacity necessary to race. I'm sure there have been people with the potential ability to do better or just as well as MS, but they haven't been given the opportunity because they never found the teacher that clicked with their learning style, or never got the seat the right year when the scout was looking for a new driver to sponsor.

    It is fun to trace everyone's history and how they got to the top, but we will always be left wondering what it could have been like for x and y and z. I suppose it is like this in all facets of life and all sports as well.
     
  3. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,186
    "made me wonder how many Senna's and Schumacher's never made it to the big show because of circumstance"

    I think the world is full of young, very talented drivers. I've seen them in the junior series I've kicked around, Skip Barber, FF2000, FM, etc. Breaks my heart for them, it's a tough business. That's life, I guess.

    One example: a mid-20s friend, great personality, who has European racing, a US junior formula championship and other proof of his talent. If there were any justice - or if he had any money - he'd be driving a DP.

    Hard to watch sometimes, glad I'm just a middle aged wannabe.
     
  4. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Jon, I am still waiting for them to "find" me...
     
  5. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

    Mar 16, 2002
    13,337
    Ex-Urbia
    Full Name:
    Jack
    Jon, interesting points. I look at it like once you get to the upper echelons of racing, there is obvious depth to the talent pool. It takes talent to earn a shot at the top, but once you're close, well, just about anything can happen. I believe whole-heartedly that most of the F1 grid (OK, all but Schumi) could be replaced 4 or 5 times over with little or no effect on the quality of racing. The "what-ifs" are just the same as the "what-ifs" in our lives, such as where you went to school, taking a taxi vs. driving, etc. Sometimes the most minute decisions we make can have the most enormous implications. I met my wife by randomly going to a bar my friends and I seldom visit on a night she almost didn't come to Chicago to visit friends. Just like Senna almost quit racing for good in the FFord days. I wonder how many others out there that DID hang it up prematurely could have been top-calibre?
     
  6. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    49,601
    @ the wheel
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    Andreas
    Interesting question. OTOH there are those with incredible persistence and willingness to lay it all on the line: Lauda who took a huge bank loan to get himself into F1 and Mansell who put his house up to keep racing.

    And then there are some who made it to F1, but still didn't get a break even when they deserved it. Jean Pierre Jarier comes to mind. Nick Heidfeld is another one, but maybe this will be his year.

    And as far as Michael is concerned: As much as I can't stand Willi Weber, it has to be said that this guy saw the raw talent and was willing to take a huge chance and paid Eddie Jordan for the test drive at Silverstone (famous quote from one of the team members: "I don't know what's going on, but your guy (Michael) must be cutting some corners. These times are not to be believed."). So in a sense he deserves his 20%.

    Now here is a question: If Michael would not have made it, would the world have ever heard about Ralfie?
    :)
     
  7. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    May 14, 2004
    2,893
    Similar to the above question:
    If HONDA were not willing to pour in Millions of Dollars to keep their poster boy Sato in F1, would Sato be driving for BAR Honda??? :)
     
  8. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

    Mar 16, 2002
    13,337
    Ex-Urbia
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    Jack
    Nor would the world have heard of Billy Carter or Roger Clinton had it not been for their bros...:)
     
  9. fluque

    fluque Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2004
    1,759
    Above 2240m
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    Fernando
    Good question, may the cream does rise but not all of those who deserve an F1 chance always get it. Except from the very top F1 drivers (MS, Kimi, ...) I'm not so sure F1 is represented by truly the best driver line ups. Money, talent, connections and luck play a big role but who knows in what order.
     
  10. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    That might be too pessimistic a statement. I think for the most part the money drivers have no lasting careers in F1. They get in, but they normally don't last too long. I think for the most part the people making the field are the best for that job (that is not to say, they're the best drivers in general of the world as we saw at the Race of Champions last month).
     
  11. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    If by C.R.E.A.M you mean: Cash Rules Everything Around Me - then yes, the "best" rise to the top (of the money pile).
     
  12. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    A little off, but probably on point:

    In 1971 a bunch of us, racing AFM got AMA licenses, which at the time has 3 levels: Novice, Junior, Expert. Myself, along with several others got the Junior license. At the same time, another guy, K Roberts also got his Junior license. At the time, they ran a program which had the followingt 250 novice race, 250 combined junior expert the 500 race for juniors and the main event.

    One of the guys who got his lisence (and talked me into racing, changed my life) was a guy by the name of Jerry Greene. They had 6 road races that year. Kawasaki was paying 5000 for a win that year (a huge amount of money then, example: my first house cost 45k that year now worth about 900k). Greene got a ride in the 250 class with a priavteer, who put together very good stock vehicles, and with Irv Kanamoto in the 500 class on a Kawaskai. Bottom line, in the expert Junior Class, Green got 6 second places, behind a guy by the name of Kel Carruthers, and in front of another guy by the name of Calvin Rayborn, Jr. (to those of you who don't know who they were, Carruthers was an ex-world champ, and rumour is that Rayborn was the best rider we'd ever produced at that point in time). Both Rayborn and Carrathuers were on factory bikes. Roberts consistently finished 5, 6, 7, etc. in those races (he got better). Greene also won 5 of 6 of the 500 class races, motor broke in one of the races.

    At the end of the season, an individual at Kawaski who been skimming 1000 per race from Greene's money, didn't get the last 1k. Blackballed him. Never got a good ride since then, now driving truck in California.

    Creame sometimes rises to the top, but money always does. Remeber: life isn't fair, the best person doesn't always win. Jerry's story stuck with me, great talent, got screwed because he wouldn't play the game.

    Art
     

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