Double Dipping! | FerrariChat

Double Dipping!

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 134282, Apr 19, 2015.

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  1. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 134282, Apr 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I was fervently prompted to abstain from creating this thread. It was suggested to me - urged, even - that merely starting this thread could be bad for my heath. Lupara Bianca was one of the terms used. Google it; I had to Google it. It's interesting.

    It has always been suggested that Ferrari "double dips" - fudging production numbers, using the same serial number more than once, etc. But this is almost impossible to prove; almost. You'd have to be an insane, obsessive serial number tracker to finally, after years, unearth some solid evidence. :)

    If you know about Ferrari serial numbers, you know that the serial number is the last six digits of the VIN (for those of you who own 348s or older Ferraris, your serial number is the last five digits of the VIN).

    Those of you who own 360s, Challenge Stradales, F430s, Scuderias, 16Ms, 612s, 599s, early 458s, 550s, Enzos, 575Ms, Superamericas, etc., have maybe noticed the shiny matricola plaque on your dash (Enzo owners, check the passenger's side carbon fiber foot well wall). Engraved into this plaque is the serial number of your car - if you then look at the VIN, you'll see that the last six digits of the VIN match the serial number engraved into the aforementioned matricola plaque. Ergo, no two cars can have the same serial number!

    Still with me?

    Below are four pictures. The first two pictures are of a red F12, s/n 186616, that was displayed at Pebble Beach three years ago.
    Notice the last six digits of the VIN: 186616.

    The last two pictures are of a white 2012 US-spec California, s/n 186616, seen for sale a few months ago at Global Luxury Imports in Burr Ridge, IL.
    Notice the last six digits of the VIN: 186616

    It doesn't matter that the beginnings of the VINs are different, or that the cars were built for different markets, or that the cars are different models. Because the last six digits of a Ferrari VIN are that Ferrari's serial number, so no two Ferraris can have the same serial number.

    But these two Ferraris have the same serial number. Hell of a way to start the week, huh? If I disappear, you'll know why. :)
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  2. 355dreamer

    355dreamer F1 World Champ
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    Uh oh...

    See ya Carbon.
     
  3. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    why did Ferrari build the FF with such a large trunk?

    so some henchmen from Maranello can stuff Carbon's body in the back without having to dismember it first.
     
  4. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    Good luck with that. Seriously, I have no idea what to expect from them.

    What about the multiple 99999 serials? Anything on those?




    PDG
     
  5. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    What's the problem? I see one Ferrari and one Dino?

    Interesting coincidence that you have uncovered but to my eyes it looks like that apart from those last six numbers the VIN is significantly different. Is there some federal (or otherwise) regulation that establishes those last six numbers as pertinent to the identification of vehicles? I think you are going to have to explain a lot more in depth about how Ferrari S/N have historically worked and how this is something more than a conspiracy theory.

    Let's just say for the sake of argument that you are correct and this is some abnormality. What is the implication? That Ferrari is building more cars than they say? How would that actually be proven that it's not anything more than a one off slip up cause by too much vino unless Ferrari allowed you to audit things?
     
  6. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    If my lifeless, exanimate corpse is gonna be shoved into a trunk, I would be proud to be stuffed into an FF.

    There's a reason that discovery was never publicly published.

    I don't get it. Is the California supposed to be the Dino?

    The first 11 characters of each VIN are vastly different when you jump from model to model, and it's even quirkier when you compare VINs of different models that were built for different countries.

    And I tried asking people about the most common questions concerning serial numbers...

    I thought my explanation about serial numbers in the initial post was clear and thorough. What else needs explaining? I'll explain anything all day, I'm just not certain what's unclear.

    The implication is that Ferrari is double-dipping - literally using the same serial number more than once, on different cars sent to different countries so that they can make extra money, and still publish low, independently accountable and verifiable annual production numbers that support the exclusivity that's cause for the inflated pricing.

    "Oh, I didn't mind paying $1MM for my Aperta because it's one of only 80 in the whole wide world."

    Yeah, LOL, try at least 160!

    It took Ferrari a while to catch on and capitalize on things like exhausts, wheel choices, caliper colors, other personalization options, etc. But they have cornered the market on exclusivity - and intangible belief that's both relevant and vital to the brand that Ferrari has created.
     
  7. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    Where was the red F12 from? You seem to imply it wasn't US market and state that the California is US spec. So did someone drag a plain Ol' F12 from Europe, Mideast or someplace just to show at Pebble and that's how Ferrari got caught?

    Do you have anything more than this one instance? Seems like if they really are doing this to a significant degree, like double the Aperta production, that there would be some additional cases documented.

    So what's the story then with the 999999 serials? If you are airing Ferraris dirty laundry on the subject then why is that case special?

    It's an interesting premise you have but I'm not exactly blown away by the evidence just yet. I am a bit curious who the E. Bursi guy is who PM'ed me this morning wanting to know the dirt on you but I think it's just somebody screwing around.
     
  8. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
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    I see no issue here.

    The actual Vin numbers are different. And that is the basis for it all.

    change one digit or number and its a different #



    At some point production #'s the last 5 or so digits will be the same as another car.
    But you don't think all the other numbers mean anything.

    Once the 17 Digit vin came out all the Serial Number stuff went out the window.


    But really what are we looking at so what the last 6 Numbers are the same.
    That i
     
  9. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I think the argument is that most of the VIN is informational-manufacturer, model, region where the car will be, engine type, etc...and the last 6 numbers are what matters in terms of unique identifiers to that specific vehicle. so two vehicles with the same last 6 is sloppy accounting at best and at worst could be some plot to hide true production numbers, or some other shenanigans.

    and you are correct, 6 digits gives you almost a million vehicles, so large manufacturers do have the same last six for multiple cars even within one model year (there are various ways that can occur). but I don't think it's fair to compare Toyota or GM to Ferrari in this respect, particularly in light of Carbon's argument about exclusivity/rarity being a large part of the Ferrari mystique.
     
  10. YellowF50

    YellowF50 Formula Junior

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    Strong words.

    RIP. Carbon.
     
  11. davebuchner

    davebuchner Formula 3

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    I think it is very significant - as we (and dealers / owners clubs / etc etc) have always referred to our cars by their last 5/6 numbers as a unique identifier.

    No-one when asked about their s/n rattles off the full 13 digit / letter sequence.

    We have gradually seen the numbers rise over the last 2 decades - my 308 is 54173 and my 360 is 133980, now if there are numbers being used twice - then the unique identifier is no longer unique.
     
  12. davebuchner

    davebuchner Formula 3

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    Hi Carbon,

    I was going to ask you why the white van with blacked out windows has been parked outside your house for the last 2 hours - now I know.

    Please don't ask how I know it is there.

    Dave
     
  13. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    I think someone has hacked Carbon's account on this site and is posting crazy things on here, trying to get him in trouble. ;)
    .
     
  14. cprob

    cprob Karting

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    Hilarious Carbon, but I would suggest something less sinister. 186616 (the F12) slots in between 2 F12s that were at 2012 Geneva. The Paris SA Aperta seems to be sn 171212 (but with no or different vin from the US spec California). Perhaps cars they know they are keeping for whatever reason (the Aperta seems to have spent its whole life at the Museo) are given same sn's as customer cars but different VINs.... food for thought..
     
  15. davebuchner

    davebuchner Formula 3

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    That would make sense I suppose.
     
  16. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The red F12 is from Europe - as per the VIN, it's a European-spec car, built for Europe, but it was in Pebble Beach in 2012, on display, because it was a brand new model at the time.

    There are other possibilities, sure, but do you know incredibly difficult it is to catch these catch and document these instances? Just because Ferrari double Aperta production doesn't mean they reused some of the serial numbers - I bet every Aperta serial number is different, because it's a limited edition model.

    I've only seen one 99999, so I can't personally account for the existence of more than one. However it's been relayed by an extremely reliable source that there are at least two 99999s. And now I know why that proof has never been posted the way I've posted here about 186616.

    Is this another joke?

    No, when it comes to Ferraris, the first 11 characters of the VIN are not the basis for it all. Ferrari serial numbers are unique to each Ferrari, therefore every Ferrari serial number is different. Even if you have two different models, built for two different countries, you cannot have two different Ferraris that wear the same serial number.


    No, none of the serial number "stuff" changed when the VIN was introduced; serial numbers were simply tacked on to the ends of VINs. To learn more about specifically Ferrari VINs, check out Edvar van Daalen's Red-Headed.com. Be sure to click on VIN Decoder.

    Mmmmph! Mmmmmmmmmphphph!!!

    Parker, 186615 is, supposedly, an F12 that was maybe the Paris Auto Show car, but I don't have hard evidence. And the issue with 171212 was that it didn't display a full VIN, only a matricola plaque in the engine bay. Today, we know and are certain that 171212 is a 2010 US-spec red/tan California, and that Ferrari just gave the Paris Show Aperta a serial number plaque for display purposes. Here, with 186616, we have two complete and correct VINs for two different models; full VINs! This is different than 171212.

    Can you tell me about the other F12 that flanks 186616? Is it 186617?
     
  17. UroTrash

    UroTrash Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 UroTrash, Apr 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I could type out other supposed examples, but none like this; none like 186616, where the proof is irrefutable.

    I promise you, this is deliberate; this is not sloppiness or laziness
     
  19. UroTrash

    UroTrash Four Time F1 World Champ
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    To make a difference in exclusivity wouldn't it have to be in the hundreds, not just a handful?
     
  20. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    I'm sure it is, nobody I ever heard of.
     
  21. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    #21 toggie, Apr 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Is it a possibility someone is messing with you by photoshopping the duplicate VIN?

    Here I fixed the F12 VIN - no problem now. :)
    .
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  22. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    #22 toggie, Apr 19, 2015
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  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Depends what model we are talking about.
     
  24. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    You're driving it???


    THE SECRET IS OUT!!!

    :D:D:D
     
  25. UroTrash

    UroTrash Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Well, right here we are talking about Californias; hardly exclusive.
     

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