Double Dipping! | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Double Dipping!

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 134282, Apr 19, 2015.

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  1. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 30, 2003
    19,036
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Toggie (Ron)
    Carbon,

    What is the end game you see with your collection of VIN data?
    Do you plan to leave a legacy somehow after your death?
    Are you building some sort of elaborate self-destructing Cryptex to store all the data in?

    Just curious.
    .
     
  2. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Apr 21, 2003
    15,111
    Gulf Coast
    Sorry to nuke my last couple posts... I have decided it's best to recuse myself from any further discussion :)
     
  3. dflett

    dflett Formula 3
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    Jun 24, 2005
    1,632
    NY
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    David
    I find Carbon's discovery significant.

    For 68 years the unique, sequential serial numbers have been the single, predictable thread that has linked the history of each of our cars together from 01C to the current day. I find it disappointing to say the least that Ferrari may have abandoned this tradition. Most owners I meet, of the older cars at least, know their cars serial numbers but don't know their VINs.

    Good work Carbon!

    Now, is this is a one-off mistake or a sign that Ferrari have abandoned the concept of a serial number altogether (after all serial numbers are by definition, unique and sequential - forming a mathematical series)?
     
  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    20,055
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I have been saying this for years. Ferrari builds far more cars then they claim. I look at the number of shops that service these cars in my area, they are all busy and keeping the lights on. There are a lot of them out there..
     
  5. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
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    Carbon McCoy
    Ron, I don't trust most people. Not just with my data, but in general - I just struggle establishing deep and lasting trust with a majority of people. So while I have an unnamed number of backups stored in various, undisclosed locations, I've yet to decide to whom I'll bequeath the amassment of my data.

    I can't speculate as to the end game as of yet - I'm just too obsessed with doing it to think about what to do with it. How and to whom I posthumously leave my legacy is as-yet undetermined.

    Yeah, I saw that...
    ...why?

    Well, to be clear, Ferrari didn't introduce the full, official VIN (into most models) until 1980.

    This is neither. It is not a one-off mistake, nor is it a sign that Ferrari has abandoned the system they've employed since the company's inception. It is simply a captured and proven, posted sample of just one example of the myriad trickery they've employed for decades.
     
  6. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
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    Jes
    I'll PM you the full VIN of my cars - don't think you have them all.
     
  7. Crayzee1

    Crayzee1 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 19, 2013
    9,836
    Fort Worth, TX
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    Shawn
    How many Ferraris are still on the road or rather still in existence? There has to be under 200,000 made by the serial numbers (if Ferrari is being upfront). If that is the case, if only half were still on the road with roughly 25% exported to the US, that would be 25,000 in the USA. Or 500 a state. Doesn't seem like enough to need a whole bunch of shops per state. Correct any of my off the hip shooting...
     
  8. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
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    Carbon McCoy
    Awesome, thank you!

    S/N 227690 will be Ferrari's 200,000th Ferrari, and Ferrari is building late 210xxx or very early 211xxxx cars right this minute (210580 was just seen this morning in Basel, Switzerland).

    The one question that has been asked of me, that I've never been able to answer even with a vague, completely uneducated guess, is the number of Ferraris left on the road, and/or the number of Ferrari totaled and subsequently not rebuilt. But I highly doubt that as many as 50% have been destroyed. Even for Ferraris, that seems overwhelmingly high. Isn't the law of averages a standard 10%? What's the law of averages for totaled automobiles, and does it increase or decrease for rare and/or valuable sports cars? Also, the USA has consistently purchased 30% of Ferrari's annual production.
     
  9. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,693
    Sarasota
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    David
    Rolls Royce claim that over sixty percent of the cars they've ever made are still "roadworthy"
     
  10. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
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    Carbon McCoy
    When they say "roadworthy" do they mean it's worthy of being parked on the road even though it can't actually start?
     
  11. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,693
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    David
    A Rolls does not break down. It fails to proceed.
    ;)

    I don't know what their standard for roadworthyness is but I assume that it is at least extant and restorable at worst.
     
  12. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
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    Carbon McCoy
    Just got another one, full VIN, also in IL. This does not include the 47 other cars that were just sent to me, spotted at an event yesterday, and whose history and details were updated in my database; but only two were completely new to me.
     
  13. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Wait, come back! I'm not done being obnoxious.

    ...just got another new car, this time an Alonso Edition 599 seen in a gas station, also in IL.
     
  14. cprob

    cprob Karting

    Apr 13, 2004
    243
    Hudson Valley
    Full Name:
    Parker
    The percent still mostly together/roadworthy of any series Daytona and past has got to be in the 90's . If you have a title/bill of sale and a piece of the car, you find a way to make it whole. I remember an article on one of the best RR historians/mechanics and how he had a collection of sn plates of chassis that no longer existed. ....Carbon.. Do you have any vin plates/(stickers?) of chassis that are no longer with us?
     
  15. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
    Owner

    May 24, 2004
    9,334
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    Mr.
    Are the vehicles in question limited production models? If not, I don't think a purchaser should be concerned.

    This isn't an artist where two prints are found to be sn 75/100... Even so, duplicate sn from different models could still have accurate production numbers.

    I would find it hard, in this day and age of computers, to have this be a mistake. I guess if you had two lines running at the same time a mistake could be made and not caught.

    I could see other possibilities for this...I mean it is Italy.
     
  16. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2002
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    Carbon McCoy
    Parker, without getting into too much detail, I'm not comfortable owning such memorabilia. I know some other people who have these types of items, and their intentions are ignoble. I'm not saying everyone who is in possession of such plates and plaques and stickers is nefarious, I'm just saying I've come across some dubious characters, who owned those materials, and with them had dishonorable intentions.

    Neither of the vehicles in question are not limited production models.

    This is exactly like numbered artist prints. Even though the two Ferraris in question aren't numbered limited production models, the cars are still numbered - serial numbered. And every Ferrari is built with an individual and unique serial number (as well as an individual and unique assembly number, and as well as an individual and unique engine number).

    It is not a mistake; this was done intentionally, and it's not the first time it's been done - but despite today's technology, it's still incredibly difficult for even the savviest of trackers to catch such a mistake. For me and what I've dedicated my life to doing, this is huge. The fact that it's been suggested for years, that Ferrari has been accused of exactly this for years, and I can finally present irrefutable proof, is huge.

    Decades ago, it was easy to blame "mistakes" on the fact that the cars were manufactured in Italy - "Giuseppe and Luigi had too much vino with lunch," etc. But these days, blaming "made in Italy" is simply a refusal to believe the truth.
     
  17. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 8, 2005
    79,815
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    Jerry
    It would seem to me that you could easily write a script for excel to search your database and see how many duplicate serial numbers were in it.
     
  18. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
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    Carbon McCoy
    It's easier than a script - every possible duplicate is already documented and noted. But irrefutable duplicates such as the one in my initial post come but once in a lifetime. This is being SO documented, it will be published in an upcoming article.
     
  19. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
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    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    Just added a new Aperta to the database!
     
  20. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 3, 2002
    40,647
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    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    #70 134282, Apr 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just so we're clear, the factory does make mistakes. But the VINs I posted in the initial post are not a mistake, they're an intentional deception.


    This is a mistake:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2007
    100,427
    1791?

    If it ain't baroque, don't fix it.
     
  22. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2007
    100,427
    that should be your signature.
     
  23. Matthias Urban

    Matthias Urban F1 World Champ

    Mar 5, 2005
    10,214
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Matthias Urban


    The California is confirmed, Carbon. Are Pictures of the S/N plate on the engine of the F12 or the door sticker on the passenger side (that's where the European Stickers are) available? Or any history on the F12 (delievering dealer, Registration)?
     
  24. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
    9,294
    CHNDLR
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    Scott
    +1, although the lure of easy money makes this scenario fairly easy to believe.



    You've seen ZFFTA46B000099999 with key lock 212, I've sent you photos of 99999 with lock 325 years ago so no denying it.
    Who is your buddy ?!

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/140311986-post146.html

    From this:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/288gto-f40-f50-enzo-laferrari/275229-99999-2.html
     
  25. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 8, 2005
    79,815
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    Jerry
    So out of curiosity, how many duplicates do your records show and are any of them triplicates or more ?
     

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