Driving fast with a 360

I've just bought a 360 F1 Spyder and while if I was feeling frisky I would have popped for the Stradale as well, I decided to just buy one since I wanted a street Ferrari to start anyway.

I come from Porsches. I am a member at a track Country Club and can go fast anytime I want. I have had it to two sessions now and it's quite a car. It steers with any combination of wheel, throttle and braking but the dynamics are far different, and differently feeling than the Porsches.

While I realize that no one technique works for all types of turns, the car seems to go very nicely when I brake hard and late, coming off smoothly but retaining some brake thru turn in with a sharp snap on the wheel. This causes a few to several degrees of oversteer which can then be maintained with smooth application of throttle and I keep the tail just a little out well past the apex and straighten it out quite gradually as I track out. Almost like driving straight thru, even though Im turning of course.

The car seems to like it and will do this very smoothly and reproducibly.

There is one turn, about 120 deg right-hander where I'm afraid that even though it's all set up right and I know the car can take it, the damn electroinc hand comes out and slows me down.

So, firstly, any other suggestions for fast, smooth corners? And, any sugestions about a trick that might not trigger the "safety" device?

Thanks

 

1. Racing school.

2. Driver coach.

 

Sounds like you are very well aware of things and perhaps a coach could help, but if you want zero computer intervention then turning off all aids might be the only way to go.

FYI: Was a passenger in a Porsche with SCCA National Champ (think his name was Kip) at Lime Rock last year. During the first few turns he realized he forgot to turn them off and the car's 'aids' were slowing him down and seemed to cause instability(!). Once he hit a button and the aids were all off he had full control. Amazing driving ability and he never 'ran out of talent' as best i could tell. Perhaps it is time you turn off all driving aids if you have the talent.

 

ok, rtfm (DUHHHHHHHH) I turned off the ASR today and it ran (far) better.

FWIW I have taken the 3 day Skip Barber School and will be taking the 2 day advanced in September right after the the Champs run at Road America (got a pit pass for that one!)

The coach at the Club and I ran it real real hard (poop, he's good, the turns I though I did well...fuggettabboutit) today and he ran out of brakes right before the chicane where the approach speed was 120!. Very exciting spinning in the grass but we managed to avoid the tires. As usual, afterwards you laugh about it, but during it all I was thinking is, "this is going to cost a lot"

Since I didn't get much response here I'll ask a couple of questions in another post to follow up. But I am suprised that more guys don't respond to honest questions about the track. Maybe Im just the 'mark" here...

 

Are you a member at Autobahn in Joliet??

Thats a very fun track..

 

YUP, great fun. I don't have time for golf anymore!

 

Sorry, did your 'coach' go off in your car? Or was it his car?

Anyway, a web forum is not the best place to 'teach' you to improve your driving. You could be more visual, more auditory or more kinesthetic and, as such, a good coach will develop coaching strategies specifically for you. A good coach doesn't go out in your car and show you all the braking, turn in and clipping points.

Do yourself a favour--pick up Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets books for a start. Definitely look for a qualified driver coach, not just an 'instructor'. You'll be better off in the long run.

 

Yeah, my car, the brakes lost it. That's why my other post about pads. Any suggestions

 

I track my 360 a bit and the stock brakes are not up to the task-period. I would do the following:

1.) Replace brake fluid with better stuff. I reccomend Castrol SRF but it is bloody expensive. Other good stuff is Motul 600. You want something with a minimum of 500 degree F boling point-I use SRF because it is good to 600 degrees.

2.) Pad replacement: I use hawk brakes but Porterfield, Feredo (I also use) also work. Get a good street/track pad. They will squeal on the street a lot but so what. Or go for full track pads and put them in once you get to track. Don't run track pads on street. Also expect disc wear to increase with this.

3.) Add a brake proportioning valve to the car. This will allow you to play with brake bias and adjustcar to your braking style.

4.) The big issue is usually the fluid boiling. That is a must change.

 

I've been using Ferodo 2500's up front and ATE Blue fluid with good results on my 360.

 

I took the 3-Day Skip Barber Race school at Laguna Seca and loved it. Please let me know how the 2 day advanced goes, becuase I am considering it for next year. ps: congrats and enjoy the new car!

 

Suggestions? Don't let amateurs drive your car?

In most situations, instructors shouldn't be driving students' cars, anyway.

The brakes aren't the real problem here. Sure, you can make some improvements--see Brian's post--but brakes should be managed by the driver while on track, racing, etc. Brakes don't just go away; it's the result of the driver doing something with the brakes before the incident that's the cause.

 

Actually this gentleman is a teacher at Bondurant as well so he's not exactly amateur. And, it does seem that others have had brake deficencies with their 360's on the track.

I can see by your profile and tenor of your posts that you do feel strongly about your opinions and things however. Thank you for your heart-felt words of encouragement. It is nice when a God descends to mingle with the mortals.

 

do they make much brake dust?
How are they when cold/road use?

 

I believe that's called a miracle.

Good luck!

 

First off to answer you original question and the question of why the poor responses to your question in the first place.

An internet forum is not the place to ask such a question for two reasons. One, there is no way to verify the qualifications of the people giving you advice (just as you wouldn't ask for medical or financial advice of a serious nature and act upon it before getting professional advice on what you got from the internet).

Second, there are way too many variables to consider which you did not state. Examples such as: what tires? what tire pressures, what alignment settings, what driving style, what track temperatures, what type of turn, how much entry speed or exit speed, what is your level of experience, ................... the list goes on and on!

From the way in which you posted the question and the questions you asked, I gather you are someone who most likely is not a seasoned racer or experienced track day participant (this is not a negative statement just an observation based on the post).

On the subject of letting an instructor drive your car you need to first check the qualifications of the instructor. When I joined the track scene 10 years ago before most people ever knew about track days, instructors tended to be racers with years of either amatuer or professional experience. Not only that, but most took courses on how to instruct which is just as important as being proficient and fast. The best racer in the world is useless if he can't instruct.

With the boom in track days and organizations sponsoring such, everyone's an instructor. People who have little business being on the track, let alone instructing are now being thrown in the passenger seat. I could post ten paragraphs about what constitutes a "QUALIFIED" instructor but don't assume because someone is an instructor that they are qualified.

The terms "instructor", "driver coach", and "race coach" are staring to be used by a lot or people who aren't qualified by any means. I am not going to get into what one needs to do such but a couple of important things come to mind:

1) Someone who can teach. As stated earlier if you can't convey all your knowledge and experience to the student what good is your professional qualification

2) Someone who keeps Saftey at the top of the list. There are a lot of instructors who aren't the fastest driver's on the planet but many good ones understand the dynamics of high performance driving and don't need to drive at or above the limit in their car or yours to show you a specific task. The instructors goal should be to teach you to be safe and skillful.

3) Someone who understands that different students have different goals. Some students want to learn to be a better driver, but aren't concerned with how fast they go. Others want to be able to explore the limits of their cars and their own skill. Some are just out to have fun and want a safe environment to do so. The list is long and instructor should be able to teach various student with various goals.

4) Experience or God given talent. Missing either of those two then forget about it, you might was well put your mother in the passenger seat and have her give you advice about turn 7 at Road America.

I would be highly suspect of someone who calls themself a "QUALIFIED" instructor or coach who doesn't have at least a couple of years of instructing under their belt, and prior to that at least 4-5 years of racing or track day experience. I will preface this by saying that some people with God given talent don't need this. Skip Herr is only 20 years old and has only been racing for about 4-5 years but obviously anyone who can get a World Speed Challenge ride and win races most likely has the skill and experience. Again, you also have to take into consideration his ability to teach.

I've been racing for over six years and have raced in everything from openwheel cars to production cars. I've won two amatuer championships (third one looming), won a 12 Hour endurance race, and raced with open wheel guys who are now in F3 and GP2. Prior to racing I did a number of racing schools while doing 5+ years of track days. However, you'd be wrong to assume given my background that I am a qualified instructor.

I AM NOT ! I've tried to instruct on a number of occassions but have never felt comfortable in the passenger seat. I get asked a dozen time a year to instruct or "why don't you instuct" and the answer is simple. If I am not comfortable in the other seat I can't do my job properly.

Lastly, eventhough you stated your instructor was a Bondurant instructor, there is absolutely no excuse in the world, short of a terminal brake failure, that any "QUALIFIED" instructor should ever take a wheel off course in someone else's car. I don't care if it's a 360 or a VW.

B-Mak is spot on, brakes don't go from 100% efficiency to complete brake fade in one lap. If the brakes faded that bad he should have know it on the previous laps. Or it wasn't the brakes at all and he's too embarrased to admit it. I've raced cars in racing competion that had literally no brakes and someone with skill can still drive a car around a track at speed with less than 100% efficiency. I drove the last 3 hours of a 12 hour race with practically no brakes. There is no excuse for him taking your 360 off the course.

 

I appreciate the input and even though I pulled b-mak's chain a little for the "God" thing I do understand what the was saying. Even I noted the brakes fading at my speeds, and at his, I suspected he had some inklng that the brakes were headed South.

Happily, no real damage was done to my car, and I am headed off to Skip's 2 day in Sept @ RA. (BTW, turn 7 isn't really that hard with the cars I've taken it in. A Champ car...well that could be interesting. On a not so funny note it was near the entry to 7 where DaMatta had his tragic contact with a deer. Go figure)

Yes, I'm fairly new having started this year, but my virtually unlimited track time availability at Autobahn has allowed me some time to gain experience somewhat rapidly. An advantage! But even though I can tell brakes fading and tires getting squishy I am likely no where near where I would like to be.

So, assuming I have some resources and can travel if necessary, tell me where you might suggest a real "teacher" might be in your experience. Let's say I want to drive something like Formula Ford next year and feel I understand a few basics.

I would sincerely appreciate your input, and thanks for the time you've rendered so far.

 

Herman,

You already have the best instructors in the world. I am a Skip Barber graduate. I started with them doing the 3 day school, then the 2 day advanced school, then some lapping days, before I took the full plunge and raced in the Eastern Regional Formula Dodge Series.

Any professional school such as Barber, Bondurant (one instructor who spun your 360 not withstanding !), Russell, or Daley will have the cream of the crop.

As far as qualified instructors at track days, you have to ask around and do some homework. You can also hire your own instructor for the day. Many professionals will do so but the cost can be expensive. Some of people I used to race with have hired Porsche factory driver David Murry to help set up their race cars and for personal instruction. He used to charge $150.00 per hour and something like $600-$800 per day. Expensive but it's an eye opener when you get someone of his caliber.

Also be weary of track day organizations that seem to have too many cars and not enough instructors. These are the groups that start signing up anyone to instruct because they are short handed.

One last bit of advice that came in very handy for me when I was doing trackdays. I had a 355 at the time which I was scared to explore the limits in for fear of crashing the car. I had an older BMW which I turned into a track car and did a lot of track days in that car. The difference between the two cars was my willingness to push the BMW beyind it's and my limits because I could live with the fact that I could write the car off. I transferred a wealth of information and car control skills which I learned in the BMW to my 355, enough so, that I eventually retired the BMW and converted my 355 into the last 355 Challenge car built in North America. At that point I had the skill to push the 355 beyond it's limits and feel comfortable and in control to do so. Had I not had the BMW to learn with I would have never gotten to the limits of the 355.

Good Luck !

 

Cool. I've done much the same this season with a Mitsubishi EVO MR. Traded it in on the 360. Hope I do as well as you apparently have.

Thanks again