I have a couple of questions while driving our 400i. 1st) When driving does your gas gauge tend to move up and down alot, especially when in turns at 1/2 tank and below? 2nd) What is your typical combined milleage? and how far do you tend to drive before a refill? 3rd) Do you use any additives for enhanced performance, octane boosters, lead type additive. Just because these cars have been grey marketed and have the "unleaded fule only lables attatched, they really can run great on leaded fuel availible at any small airport. Add any thoughts regarding your regular use and operation. We love the car and want to get all the enjoyment we can possibly obtain. Howard and Candy Musolf 1981 308gtsi 1982 400i Cabriolet Maserati spider 2 many brass era cars
Hi Howard 1.) Yes. I might see the red low fuel light come on in a hard, sweeping right hand turn even when the tanks are half full. 2.) Don't reallly measure because I know it's not good, probably 10-11 mpg with spirited driving style. Measuring fuel economy on a V12 Ferrari would be as useful as measuring 0-60 times on a Yugo! 2a.) With a 31 gallon capacity, I tend to fill up every 150-200 miles because I don't want to see a fill that costs more than $100! 3.) I don't use any additives and haven't considered putting in leaded aviation fuel or even high octane leaded racing fuel, which would probably be more suited in an automotive application. The car runs very strong as it is on unleaded premium and, even though I don't need to run with the cats installed anymore, it just has never occurred to me to go for the leaded fuel. One of the great things about these cars is that they are very reliable and not at all fussy to keep running smoothly once they are set up. It starts more quickly than my modern cars and spark plugs last a long time. I'm still on only my second set in 15,000 miles. Just gas 'em up and go!
1) ditto Howard's response but at all fuel levels. 2) I was rigorous about checking mileage for first 2 years. I generally use car on long trips both interstate and country road but no commuting. I was 12 to 12.5 mpg. I had to average over several fill ups as getting uniform fill is tough. (that may be due to my fuel vent problems noted in a thread of mine.) 3) I sue RedLine fuel injector cleaner as a precaution. I do not use any octane booster. 10% ethanol in the gasoline has given all of my cars white spark plugs. At upped my richness a bit this year to compensate (1.5 to 2.0% CO). Ken
Could be better with the injection, with the 400gt I get 5 to 7 in town and around 14 mpg on cruises that is based on a huge trip around Europe and all my daily driving. Regards Alastair
1.)Mine will nudge a little when near empty, & will move more below 1/2 tank when cornering hard as John mentioned because the fuel level sending unit is in the right tank. 2.) Never calculated, I'm sure some of it will be influenced on what levels your CO is set at. 3.)Sta-bil, Lucas upper cylinder lubricant, MMO in 100/116 octane unleaded Sunoco race fuel. I hear the marine world are experiencing horrors w/ethanol blends in aluminum fuel tanks. Also Hagerty & others have discovered the negative effects of ethanol on the entire fuel system & its maintenance rigors that go along w/it. Aluminum & alcohol don't mix. I don't have cats to worry about & our aluminum tanks aren't cheap. The smaller middle tank (termed 'additional' by Ferrari) that connects to the 2 main tanks will run you around $600. (new from Eurospares) to get it to your front door. Not all cars have the 'unleaded fuel' dash labels applied nor fuel nozzle restictor plates installed. Mine will accept a fire hose! I wonder if I could fill up w/one of those Nascar jugs?
Short of buying fuel with no ethanol, which is hard to do, is there anything that can be done to lessen the effects on the aluminum bits? Is it correct to think that the unleaded racing fuels by Sunoco have no ethanol?
I'm sorry, my mistake!! I meant 'leaded'. And, of course, no ethanol! Hagerty performed a survey w/its customers a while back on uses/preferences/maintenence issues of ethanol additives in todays unleaded fuel & subsequently wrote an article on the results of the survey & what maintenence will be required on the entire fuel system of older cars. And although they mentioned the harmful effects it has on aluminum, they really didn't address it as most fuel tanks out there are steel if I remember correctly. We are the very few & proud. I also think it makes a difference how 'fresh' you keep your fuel, my understanding is that ethanol will gradually separate & fall to the bottom in a matter of a couple of months I think. I believe this is where the problem is w/marine environment, boats aren't running every day & will experience periods of non-use. I would recommend lining or coating the tank interiors & all associated tubing welded to them at least. Survey results:....http://www.hagerty.com/lifestyle/hobby_article.aspx?id=45324 What you should know:.....http://www.hagerty.com/lifestyle/hobby_article.aspx?id=34356 Ethanol--Demonic or Devine:...http://www.hagerty.com/lifestyle/hobby_article.aspx?id=55960
I'm going to the small airport down the road from my house and see if they pump enthanol free fuel. Next I wonder if it is legal to sell this fuel for vehicles? The last question is what if we used the ethanol fuel during the drive season, let the tank run low and then fill up with non ethanol fuel for the winter? I had never thought about boat fuel tanks before. I used to work at a boat factory some 30 years ago and we would bury an aluminum tank in the bilge of the boat then surround the tank with foam insulation and cover it with a floor board. So if a tank rots out and leaches fuel into the foam/bilge, that sounds like disaster in the happening. At least if the fuel tanks spring a leak in one of our Ferrari's the fuel will just drip onto the floor while sitting. Now here is a thought or 2 for tank repair. There are several options, some better than others. The Ferrari tanks are so baffeled that you are really unable to add a sealer and get complete coverage on the inside. The other options are to totaly clean the undercoating off the outside of the tank bottom. Cut and form a aluminum overlay piece and heiarc the 2nd bottom to the orginal tank. You have added a new layer of aluminum to the leaking tank. While this will not stop the chemical action it will delay the problem for many years. The more drastic resolution would be to cut holes in various places in the existing tank and pour sealer in and then plug the holes and slosh the sealer around and around and around. Let sit and cure several days or weeks, then cut and fit plugs to the holes and heliarc in place. If you decide to go this route be sure to drill the holes well above the fuel level you plan on leaving in the car during down time. Just a few thoughts from my point of view, oh by the way as I learned from prior expierence, water has larger molecules than gas. I had a leak in 1 fuel tank of my 308. I removed the tank and cleaned the exterior and applied an external sealer. I let it cure properly for a week in the sun. I tested the repair with water and wella, no leaks. I installed the tank, no easy job and then for the moment of truth, I added fuel, and the damn thing dripped all over the place. I then remember what I had been taught in high School Chemistry Class, molecular structure, and I knew at the ripe old age of 17 I would never never use or need all that useless information they were cramming down our throat. I'm sure my old chem teacher was laughing in his grave at my stupidity. I got to do the job all over again with a better result............... Howard Musolf 1981 308gtsi 1982 400i Cabriolet Maserati Spider 2 many brass era cars
It appears that the addition of ethanol has been shown (or suggested) to have negative effects beyond that related to aluminum and extends to other elements of the fuel system, such as some of the rubber bits (especially in vintage cars). I had been following the thread listed below in the General Forum with some interest. If a seach is conducted, I'm sure there's more to be found here in f-chat. Happy reading. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283263
Because leaded fuel is not technically allowed for street use, customers are only allowed to dispense it into approved fuel cans...what you do w/it is your business. Well that's a disaster waiting to happen! No smoking allowed! What if you mount the tank on a bar-b-q spit type contraption (motorized even) & change axis's from time to time, wouldn't that get it into all the nooks & cranny's?? That would save all the drilling & repairing, & maintain the 'stock' look. You're ahead of the game in that dept., I took a total of 2 days of chemistry before transferring into design technology which exempted the sciences & focus on advanced math. As boring as those 2 days were, I now wish I had taken it. No time like the present, pick up a book & read.
Found this little tidbit on another thread... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283263 "Currently, the alcohols methanol and ethanol are added to automotive and marine fuel in most areas of the United States and its use in fuels globally is increasing at a dramatic rate. The primary alcohol added to fuel is ethanol, at a concentration ranging from 10-20%. Interestingly, the aviation industry filed suit against the federal government and was granted an injunction against the requirement of adding ethanol to aviation fuels."
in the thread link I included above... "Due to our Fuel Hose developement I have been following all of the legislation related to this for a number of years now. The test studies were done on mid to late 2000 cars as no one cares about the olders cars, follow the money for that explination. The U of M studies listed all of the late model cars, all using plastic fuel lines and wide band O2 sensors which saw no problems. What they didnt look at was the rubber components inside the fuel tanks after a number of years... here lies more problems we are now addressing. Our fuel hose engineers figured out how to mold the liner material we are using in our fuel hoses into complex shapes of those rubber components inside the fuel tanks. Two years ago all of the major oil companies bought up all of the alcohol refineries in the US... ya think its here to stay? Bet on it, we will be burning hog food and pond scum for some time to come! There are very few rubber hoses that will stand up to the current fuels and remain intact, do some HARD research there before picking one. Most are advertized as ethenol resistant, few really are. Carb's with the external accel pump diaphrams (Weber's), external mechanical fuel pumps using flexible diaphrams.... they are all subject to failure as soon as the fuel eats the rubber off the canvas diaphram. The alcohol has an odd effect on engine operation. O2 sensors are looking for extra O2 in the exhaust, when they see it they feed back to the computer to lean down the fuel mixture. Alcohol being an oxygenate by its very nature puts extra O2 in the exhaust yet alcohol requires a far richer mixture than pure gasoline to burn effectively in our engines.... Alcohol jets for the carbed engines are huge compared to the gasoline jets. After finishing jetting carbs on a fresh 330GTC engine we finsihed last year, using a wide band O2 sensor in the exhaust we ended up with main jets far larger than used at sea level and we at near 6000 feet elevation here. The earlier cars using a narrow band O2 sensor and a hard programed fuel curve are faced with some issues. Alcohol boils at a far lower temp, notice how hard they are to start hot? Terrible idle at the stop light? Weber never factored in boiling alcohol in the float bowls in their design. The days af reading spark plugs against the old photo charts are long gone, the game has changed. We are currently working on an O2 sensor design we came up with to compensate for this situation. I hold little hope of ever getting these to market as the EPA will have to be involved in this and you know any time that 3 letter acro enters into a sentence the costs go up by a factor of 10 at minimum. With the "Cash for Clunkers" program... think anyone is lining up to help with this?"
Pulled this out of Dave Helms' response. "Alcohol being an oxygenate by its very nature puts extra O2 in the exhaust yet alcohol requires a far richer mixture than pure gasoline to burn effectively in our engines.....The days af reading spark plugs against the old photo charts are long gone, the game has changed." I, myself, am curious about carbon build-up issues in the bores.
And for John, I thought I'd include this form thats very same thread... And Dave's response: Which is why I recommended keeping fuel 'fresh', guess I could've gotten into all the details.
The avgas is going to be "low lead" and will be VERY expensive. Premium pump gas has adequate octane for our cars. Road use taxes aren't paid on this fuel so they should not be selling it for your purpose. There are lead substitutes that will be far less costly than buying avgas anyway. Brett, You've been inside a bunch of these engines. Any trouble with valve seats?
Lead is only needed for valve seats that are made of cast iron. Ferrari has never used cast iron valve seats.
Below Half a Tank, the fuel level gauge must be averaged to get any meaningful information. I just fill up when it gets to half a tank. In town, my 400i will drink fuel at an incredible rate. My personal habits may contribute some to that observation. I have seen single digits like 7 to 9 on bad tanks. Highway driving and the rare gentle mileage has seen the rumored 14-16 mpg. I do not put in any additives beyond infrequent fuel injector cleaner. -sc
& I believe those fuel cells are made of the same material as our fuel tanks....'aluminum'. For those who want to stay away from ethanol, maybe there's a station near you. http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp
I am really glad to see the non ethanol site. It turns out that there is an ethanol free station listed in Snohomish less than 5 miles from my house. I can just pop over and fill up anytime I need to. I will now plan on filling my Ferrari's up for this winter without ethanol,, how cool is that. It just amazes me how great this webiste is for us looking for information and help keeping our older toys on the road. We all deserve a fine pat on the back for helping each other, with information and direction. thnx, Howard and Candy Musolf 1981 308gtsi 1982 400i Cabriolet Maserati Spider 2 many brass era cars
