Driving someone else's car on the track

Not to pick on Carbon here. (Oh, why not, he is so pickable )

What are your thoughts on driving someone else's car on the track?

Here's mine:

The bad news is that my net worth limits me to Spec Miatas.

The good news is that I get to have fun.

Based on my limited experience, driving a hot car at 4/10s is not a lot of fun. In fact, it can be dangerous. A full blown race car is meant to run, and parade laps can be problematic. However, at 6/10s, a race car starts to come alive, and at 8/10s, it starts finding its groove.

However, I would never drive some one's else's car beyond 7/10s to 8/10s. I'm just a squid. I'm not a pro driver and never will be. (This is perhaps the only nice thing about being an old fart. I have everything to lose and nothing to prove.)

For example, I just did the Ferrari Driving Experience at Mt. Tremblant. I got to drive a F430 around what must be one of the best tracks this side of the pond. If you haven't done it, turn one must be experienced to be believed. It is at the end of a decent straight and is a blind right hander that disappears into the clouds. If you do it right, you end up just right for another right hander.

Picture this. I'm driving a car that doesn't belong to me. I'm also driving what is the best example of a street/track car that Ferrari has ever made. (Seriously, the F430 has got to be the best street ready go kart ever made.) Finally, drum roll please, Ferrari didn't make us sign any damage waivers. If I wadded the car, my guess is that I would no longer be on the short list of really cool people; but, it wouldn't be my nickle.

So what did I do at turn 1:

1. Did I play like the space shuttle and launch?

2. Or, did I ease off at toward the end of the front straight and take it at maybe 6/10s?

Dat's right. I took door number 2. I have been driving w-a-y too long to abuse some one else's car. Call me a Republican. Call me an old fart. It doesn't matter. I just have this built-in guilt thing about some one else's car. If it had been my car, chuck it. Let's catch some air. But, if it ain't mine, I just can't do it.

What do you think? I'd be interested in hearing from some of you pro drivers.

Dale

 

you wouldn't go to dealer to test drive a car to waste your time.

 

I don't understand. I have taken every used Ferrari that I have ever brought on a test drive. I have only purchased one brand new Ferrari (a Stradale) that I didn't get to drive before I took delivery.

However, even on a test drive, I'm not gonna honk the car. Maybe this is why the dealer is willing to let me take the car on a test drive?

Dale

 

I think Dale was asking for responses from pro drivers.....
doesn't sound as though you qualify......

james

 

Dr.Who:

I've had similiar thoughts as of late. My buddy just purchased a Spec Miata,
and has asked me to race it twice. I appreciate his generosity, but I'm also
concerned about wadding it up and being stuck with a $12-$20k bill. If I
have to spend that kind of money, I'd rather spend it on my own car. I also
don't have any control over the other driver's actions, and one poor
decision on their part,( well you know the rest of the story). It's better to
be safe than sorry etc....


Mark

* Not a Pro Driver but SCCA National Licensed.

 

Don't sweat it. I have a Spec Miata which I lend out to just about anybody. Just git in the car and go.

Oh, and that brake thingie? Don't sweat it. Who needs any stinkin brakes in a Spec Miata?

Dale

 

I'm far from a pro driver, but I was paid for my finishes going around in circles and had sponsors at one point in time...

I completely agree with your thoughts.

I have raced others loaned cars in competition, and tracked others street cars during track events

My cars= no problem going in like I am HIV+ and contact as required

Somebody else's iron= 7/10-8/10ths on the track and maybe 8.5/10ths in competition w/sort of a buffer zone aound the car (no contact)

Hard to explain unless you have been there. But something I was always conscious of and couldn't shake.

Never really thought about bending my own stuff, (and I have the DNF's to prove it....)

 

Universal rule in racing.....if you borrow someone's car and break it....you pay to have it fixed or replaced.....no question

 

Absolutely!

Quickly, with the best available NEW parts, even if that is better than what was on it before-

No questions, no quibbling.

 

I always had nice cars and never had a lack of people who wanted to take them for a ride.

I paid the price for that - twice and almost three times. My Corvette was wadded up by a guy who wanted to impress everyone when I agreed to let him drive after he begged. Lost the rear end pulling out of a parking lot and nailed a car carrying a mom and 3 kids. No injuries, but the car was pranged good. Another guy had zero clue how wide Corvettes are (different Vette) and ran over a 4" curb, bending a wheel and rashing the sidesill. He whined when the bill came to $2k and pushed me to get the ol' Maaco special. I let an instructor drive my Viper once on a track and he really beat the crap out of it. He seemed to think that, since it wasnt his car, he could drive it like he stole it with impunity. This wasn't a seasoned pro showing me what the car could do, this was a guy who raced formula fords and had never gotten the chance to put a Viper through its paces, and he sure was running at 10/10ths to see what she had, until I put a firm stop to it after he almost lost it the second time.

My experience is that 99% of people just dont have the respect for your car that you do, and most of them dont have the integrity or financial resources to take care of the problem if they do lose it. There are folks who let the testosterone flow and want to push the car to 10/10ths to show you they're not a p*ssy and will wreck in the process. There are others who think they know "how these cars are meant to be driven" even though they wouldn't do the same in their own car, or if they would their own car is infinitely less valuable.

I am very selective about who I let drive my cars. Unless someone has the resources to pay for any damage they do, AND the integrity to man up and acknowledge that they need to pay, they don't get to drive my ride.

I am not familiar with the incident you mention above - I'm guessing it involves our friend CM? If he lost it on the track in someone else's car, that's idiotic and irresponsible. IMO you cannot accurately process the mental equation that limits how much you push a car based on how well you know it and how much you paid for it, if you weren't the one who ponied up the $$ and don't accept that you WOULD pony up the $$ if you wadded it. Mix in that these one-time Schumachers dont know the car but often have an ego to stroke, and its a recipe for disaster.

 

I was taking a weekend track school in my car and the chief instructor suggested that if the driver/owners were amenable, they could invite the assigned instructor to drive our car around the track for a couple of 6/10's laps to scout the track and show the lines. I thought, "why not?" and invited the instructor assigned to me to do that. These were supposed to be vetted ex-pro race drivers, not wannabe's. Well I couldn't honestly tell you if he was driving at 8/10's or 10/10's, but he drove it much harder than I was led to expect, hard enough that he wasn't giving me ANY commentary about lines and brake points as he appeared to be concentrating, and at least one spot he drove it at 11/10's since he lost it and spun out! This was at Infineon where spinning out in the wrong spot gets you into concrete walls. The guy was a completely worthless instructor and I had to find the chief instructor later to "discuss" the experience .

 

As you demonstrate with your Corvette pilots there is a difference between letting somone who has a similar investment and/or skill level drive your ride and someone who has no clue and is living the Walter Mitty fantasy.

Also there is a group, like your instructor, who likely are frustrated/wannabe racers with no $$$ and a chip on the shoulder-

Both are types to watch for...

Until you have ponied up for top line ride, engine, tire and crew bills or a first rate sports car it is hard to respect what it takes to get there.

 

I fell it's like having somebody s$$eing your wife. Cars is personal to me and i wouldn't ask nor let anyone drive mine.

 

Sounds like too many so-called instructors out there. I recall coaching one of my long-time students at a Ford/Shelby club day at Mid Ohio last year. The club's instructors' credentials seemed to hinge on what type of car they brought to the track, not their driving or instructing experience. This is precisely how clubs are putting themselves at risk with open track days.

At our days, the coaches that I work with are always easy on students' cars. We start the day by driving students' cars in easy 6/10ths instruction sessions, to get them familiar with the track, gear selection, etc. After that, we immediately go right seat and start coaching the drivers. After the students start enjoying themselves, we are invariably asked by the students to put their car through their paces, which is when we show them what a smooth 9/10ths lap is like. Generally, they get a new perspective on what their car is capable of and realize that they have a bit of work to do before they become a fast, smooth driver. In the 9 years I've been doing this, we've yet to spin or damage a student's car.

Personally, I have no interest in putting myself at risk in someone else's road car on the track. No thanks.

 

What a fascinating thread!

Agree with Brian's experience here. The difference is substantial between a professional driver/instructor/coach versus a "weekend warrior," IMO. At most marque club events, the "volunteer" instructor corps qualifications, experience and mindset can vary widely, hence the highly variable results! <grin>

I've been fortunate to drive hundreds of F-cars at track events over the last twenty-one years at the invitations of their owners, most of the time with them in the right seat. People know that I can speak cogently and articulately about their car, the track and what I'm thinking and doing in such a way that the experience will shorten their "learning curve" dramatically. I've also been very fortunate NOT to have one single problem that resulted in damage on the racetrack during that time. My professional reputation would not allow it!

One piece of sage advice Steve Barney gave me two decades ago. He said that I had better learn to treat these cars like a big gun, because "if I ever made a mistake and it went off, I'd wish I were DEAD!" That's in the back of my mind every corner of every lap I drive someone else's car on track, even at 9.85/10ths. Always some margin...

Like Brian, I have supreme confidence in myself and the car's ability. I believe that I create my destiny. Sounds pompous perhaps, but that gives me the confidence I need to have to do it for work and for pleasure. I have the same conversation with every owner before I get into their street car, F-car, race car or whatever before I head out on track. I do NOT assume responsibility for the car. I tell them that if something happens, I will use all the resources that I have to "make it right," but in general I do not have the money to replace their car. I've had two folks in twenty years who, after asking me to drive their car and I clarify the terms and conditions before stepping in, say "I'm not comfortable with that," which is fine, it's their car. Most marque clubs have regulations in place to prevent instructors from driving student's cars, for this potentially sticky reason...

It boils down to trust. In many cases, I have a relationship with the car owner that precedes my driving their car around the race track. Sometimes, I am coaching them in a professional capacity. Often, we are just having fun enjoying a new car and a pleasant day on the track. The more you do this, the more cars you drive, the more tracks you know so intimately that you can run a lap with your eyes closed easily, the more you realize that YOU control the risks behind the wheel. My rear end, eyes, hands and fingers are calibrated well enough so I generally know if a problem (mechanical or self-induced) is developing before it progresses to an "oh, s%$t" moment!

I know many people (Denny Austin and Steve White in the Mid-Atlantic Region come to mind) who I feel have the same or even higher skill set than I do, and each of these people perform a valuable service to the enthusiast driver community every time they slide behind someone else's steering wheel. Is driving someone else's car for everyone? Is offering your car to someone else to drive on the track? Probably not, but there are many people who can and do. Like everything, including the decision to put your F-car on the track in the first place, it's your personal decision, but if you have doubts, trust your gut. Better safe than sorry.

-Peter

 

I drove a rented 50-year-old race car in the Targa Florio this year - played nice on the street, ran it maybe 8/10ths on the Syracusa track out of respect for the equipment. Borrowed a 355GTS while we were at the track and wrung it out a bit on the front straight but was at maybe 7/10ths in the corners. I have a 348 so not in a completely unfamiliar car so had a bit of fun with it. However, I first had seen how the owner was driving it and so did not push it any harder than he had.

Not a professional by a long shot but a reasonable amount of track time in gentlemen's racing in Australia.

I don't mind driving others' cars, but I like to ride with them first to see how they drive the car and then use it similarly.

Cheers
Kevin

 

Me too. It was an FCA event and the instructor actually was a paid driver in the Firehawk series. I felt he was more seeing what he could do with my car than providing me with assistance. That was the last time I let anybody drive my car at the track who wasn't a buddy of mine who had similar skin in the game.

I'd like to hear opposing arguements to my feeling that a beginner or intermediate student stands to gain nothing by having an instructor drive their car around the track.

 

That's too bad that Yin and Andy's experiences have been so bad. I know that often at Annual Meets, the track committee and folks like Bob Coates work very hard to vet the instructor corps to get rid of people who are there to joy ride. That's not what it's supposed to be about. For the most part, they succeed.

The biggest improvements I've made as a driver have come from riding with qualified people who could and would share their knowledge with me. I can't tell you how exciting it was for me to ride with Bill Cannon and Tom Williamson at Charlotte over two decades ago. It set my course! After doing it for ten years, another personal breakthrough came from having my good friend Jim Myers critique me from the passenger seat. I only thought I knew what I was doing! <huge grin>

All I know is that my personal coaching business, both competition and straightforward high-performance driving, has gotten so busy that I no longer have the time to teach class at near as many schools as I used to any more. People feel that they get more from personal, one-on-one instruction and critique than even the favorable student-instructor ratio schools like Bertil Roos and Panoz. Plus, they get to use their car!

-Peter (you're never too good not to benefit from proper instruction)

 

Mmmm, don't know about that. Certainly not in pro racing and it's really between the driver and the owner of the car just about everywhere else I know of...

Certainly, it's the gentlemanly thing to do (and the right thing, most casual track day folks feel), but it's not automatic. That's why it's important to clarify before any action takes place.

Many years ago, at a 348 Challenge event in California, a "hired gun" (hired by FNA, I think) crashed a 348 challenge car that was not yet sold to the fellow that was sitting in the passenger seat when the impact occurred.

Now that was messy! <grin>

There is such a thing as on-track insurance...

-Peter

 

It's hard to be cut and dried here. I used to be an instructor for the P*****e club for their driving schools. All new and novice students get driven around by their instructors first to show them lines, brake points, etc. If they don't like that idea, that's fine, they don't participate in the event. You don't let a potentially unqualified driver out on the track blindly. I've driven others around in their Ferraris as well, when asked by the driver or by the club involved. Of course, these should not be 10/10ths laps, they are instruction laps. On occasion I've swapped cars with someone I knew and had seen drive, just for fun, when they brought it up. I've never asked first, and I've been prepared to fix anything that might need fixing as a result.

 

That's key!

 

a friend of mine regularly offers a drive of his cars. they're fast and they're expensive. he's also quite anal about them.

i don't accept his invitations.

just say i'm driving around a fast turn and a wheel breaks...or a suspension component...and i spin into a wall. i'd feel terrible, but apart from that, how would anyone know it was a failure of the car that caused the problem? the wall would have broken everything. who should pay for the damage? what about if the engine blows up? it's a minefield.

this sort of thing can easily happen. IMO, it's better just to enjoy being a passenger in these cars. The owners can usually drive them better than you could anyway, and you take no risks with the car or the friendship.

I almost never let anyone drive my cars, apart from, very rarely, a pro who i know doesn't feel like he has anything to prove. (so far, 4 or 5 in 30 years of ferrari ownership) It's just not worth it.

 

As long as you have a coolant catch can on that thing, I don't see any problems! <inside joke> (sorry)