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Dubious T60 Birdcage for sale

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,648
    #1 wbaeumer, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    According to the Bidcage book of respected historian Willem Oosthoek, chassis #2459 was scrapped in the late 1950s.

    Now it showed up again and is on the block in Monerey this year:

    http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CA0811-113497&entryRow=146

    According to the description of the car it was reconstructed on a new chassis, sent to the UK and my friend Steve Hart "finished" the "restoration".


    Fact is, that in 1999 a new chassis together with an original T60-cylinder head and dry sump was offered to me by a friend from Italy. I denied the offer and the project ends up in the UK, owned by P.M.

    Steve Hart told me now 2 days ago, that he indeed finished the car that is based on this chassis replicated in Italy- but at that point no chassisnumber-tag was welded on the frame!

    Despite the original engine parts the car is a 100% replica!

    Now MECUM sells it as "chassis 2459" (....together with another dubious Maserati, the A6GCS, chassis #2465, that was clearly declared as a fake by Ermanno Cozza in a letter to the UK-magazine "Auto Italia" some years ago!).

    Take your conclusion.......

    Ciao!
    Walter
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  2. anton

    anton Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 8, 2004
    105
    Dubious!? That's very generous of you.

    Anton the Carmudgeon
     
  3. licodix

    licodix Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2009
    333
    Central
    Full Name:
    Barchetta Mad Max
    Will be interesting to see if these two lots will finally be auctioned or "withdrawn"...
     
  4. Dosombres

    Dosombres Rookie

    Apr 16, 2011
    39
    Mannheim
    This is the Problem with expensive rare Things.... there is Money to earn!
    In the World of Lawyer the Auction houses say the Truth .... in this case Original Cylinderhead , Crankcase and Cabs..... thats the Original Parts....

    I have seen Racecars which have been splittet to make two of them because they are original when they have only a amount on original Parts....
    Look at the Mercedes SSK.... they where more "Originals" on the Market as they ever produced.
     
  5. Maserati Blue

    Maserati Blue Formula Junior

    Dec 13, 2010
    947
    Europe
    so let me get this right, just because you found an original screw or something, it makes the rest of your fake car a pure-breed and an original?

    interesting!
     
  6. Dosombres

    Dosombres Rookie

    Apr 16, 2011
    39
    Mannheim
    yes Walter.... i was at a Friends Workshop who help me with my Bodywork and he have an Alfa Monoposto to get a new Body. I ask him why he did not repair the old one which sit next to the Car and was told that the Customer will use the old Body and some other Parts to build up a new Car.... i think he is split the Car sell one off to get his own one for free.... everbody know what a 8 Cylinder Alfa Racecar would cost.... a Way to make Cash.... sorry but true!

    I would be lucky that i "only" have a Mistral to restore..... no one will fake this ones... not in the Moment.... not enough Money to earn with it.
     
  7. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
    516
    London UK
    Full Name:
    Mark Oliver
    And yet as I recall, in the not too distant past, at least one
    Maserati also with genuine period parts was put through
    The crusher at the behest of the Italian authorities
    Because it was deemed to be 'counterfeit goods'
    It's a CRAZY world!
     
  8. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,648
    It was an riginal V12 engine that was crashed with the replica that had been build around.

    And -according to some close friends from Italy!- behind this stupid and shamefull action was one very well known Maserati historian.....

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  9. licodix

    licodix Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2009
    333
    Central
    Full Name:
    Barchetta Mad Max
    BUt I always understand thet only replicated parts were intended to be scraped; who and why should someone have the ambition to destroy original parts? Or was it initated from official Maserati sources?
     
  10. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,648
    It came not from "official" Maserati sources!

    In Italy you have a very strong Copyright-law.

    The car was a 100% replica but fitted with an original V12-engine from aserati.

    The car should have been kept by the Police and forwarded to a museum, displayed there are a "correct 350S-replicated car". Nothing more, nothing less!

    Again the Italians missed it here, thanks to this historian -according to my Italian sources!- .....

    As far as I know a lawsuit is currently en route!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  11. fgsavoia

    fgsavoia Karting

    Jul 2, 2011
    179
    Milano, Italy
    Full Name:
    Francesco
    Although these were little production cars, the factory was often very "creative" in assigning chassis number. An article printed on Ruoteclassiche (may 2011) reported an interview to a former Maserati driver, Raffaello Rosati, speaking about the crushing of TWO A6 GCS last year by italian authorities.
    He tells that changing numbers was a common practice of the factory, especially when official cars were sold to private parties at the end of their "official" race life. Another practice was changing numbers when a car crashed. Maserati used to transplant engine, chassis or other parts from a car to another one, to make one car live.
    He told also that then in 1965, a judge (mr. Caccia) of the Bologna-Raticosa race, found out two cars had the same chassis number.
    Bruno Venezian, another former Maserati driver, told that in 1954, after crashing his car at the Mille Miglia of that year, took his car to the Maserati factory so it could be repaired. When they call him one week later, he tested it, having the feeling that it wasn't the same car he owned. When he asked about the car to the chief Maserati technician, mr. Bertocchi, he only answered to him: "Is the car good or not?"......
     
  12. Mrpbody44

    Mrpbody44 F1 Veteran
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    Jul 5, 2007
    7,172
    Jacksonville FL
    Full Name:
    Steve Metz
    What is the story on the A6GCS? The body looks strange on this car.
     
  13. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,648
    OK, everything was/is possible in Bella Italia - but we are speaking about crushing a replica today that had an original V12-engine fitted!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  14. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,648
    #14 wbaeumer, Jul 2, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
    Well, there are more than one story here!

    Fact is:

    chassis #2065 was in the hands of one of the best fakers around. Then it was sold to Germany for little money to a very respected person who had never purchased a replicar (I strongly believed that he was ripped-off!).

    He tried to verify the car and contacted me 8 or 9 years ago. I spoke with one of the guys from the echnical comission of the then existing REGISTRO MASERATI. They advised to take the car to the factory for a closer inspection by mechanics from both parties. I went back to the German owner with that info. In his fax he sent to me he was very gratefull for my efforts and explained his agreement to transport the car to Italy (till today I regret that I did not keep that fax!).

    One year later I got the info that this car had never appearedin the Factory.

    Little later the German owner came to me, telling me that he wants to sued me for "...badmouthing my car!". I told him that I happily expect the lawsuit and that he has to proof the genuity of his car. Of course nothing happened in that direction.

    The car was offered for sale for many years and a well known dealer contacted a collector and offered him the Maserati: "...the asking price for it are DM 1.1 Million and if it comes out that it is a good car the asking price would be DM 1.4 Million!" The collector finished the telephone conversation at once!

    In the meantime the car was transported to the Factory by the owner, accompanied by the dealer and Richard Crump, the Maserati historian. Ermanno Cozza did not accept the car as an original.

    I was contacted by a normal BMW-dealer from Austria that he has "....a very good Maserati AGSC (sic.!) on offer for you....!" I wished him "Bon voyage".....

    Finally the car was sold to the UK, was auctioned by BONHAMS in Goodwood and failed to sell a very low high bid for an A6GCS. Normally a car is "burned" under this circumstances!

    #2085 came back to auction with COYS in Monaco in May 2007 and was sold for Euro 1.1 Million - a very high price at that time!
    Prior to the sale the car was featured in the UK-magazine "Auto Italia" (issue 132, March/2007) with great photos etc.

    In the COYS-auction it was purchased by an important person from BMW-UK.
    When this Gentleman wanted to go to holiday he noted on Heathrow-Airport the new July-issue of "Auto Italia" on sale and found on p. 12 this letter to the edtor by Ermanno Cozza:

    “I would like to point out that certain facts relating to your Maserati A6GCS feature in issue 132 are incorrect. In 1958 Urbain Esmingaud competed at the Mount Ventoux Hillclimb in Chassis #2088, not #2065. The entry for 2001 suggests that the car was restored by Ferrari which was not the case! In 2001 the car was inspected by Ferrari but certification was not granted as the car was considered to be a reconstruction. In 2003 sub-judic it was accepted by the Historic Challenge. The owner has asked several times that Maserati S.p.A. should recognize the car. We have answered that there is not enough proof to testify that the car bearing the number 2065 is authentic.”

    The new owner immideatly cancelled his holiday and went to his friend, car-hunter Colin Crabbe, who contacted me for help. I had a very long telephone conversation with the new owner and clearly stated that I could not help him here as Cozza`s statement here is clear.
    I advised him to keep the car and drive it in minor local events or on Sundays for some years and to try to sell it then. Of course he would loose money....!

    I have to admit that if this car is a replicar then its the best I have ever seen....

    I don`t know what happened next but now the car appears back, repainted in an non-original brown color to be sold by COYS again.

    Thats my story - but perhaps there are some more within.....

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  15. Maserati Blue

    Maserati Blue Formula Junior

    Dec 13, 2010
    947
    Europe
    To me, it looks like a hot potato, who ever holds it in his hands, wants to eagerly get rid of it, while the next guy isn't aware that its hot.. until he gets his hands on it, so on and so forth.

    I guess there are many "hot potatos" out there... some known and some unknown.
     
  16. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    May 15, 2003
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    Boudewijn Berkhoff
    #16 Boudewijn, Jul 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Interestingly according to the history document the car was on display at the Galleria Ferrari somewhere from 1999-2000 on the request of the Registro Maserati. I presume at that time they were not yet aware of the origins of the car?
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  17. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    #17 wbaeumer, Jul 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes, at that time the origins of the car were unknown.

    We have to keep in mnd that Urban Esmingaud had another A6GCS #2088.
    This is Belgian owner André Loens with #2065 either in the Tourist Trophy 1955 or in the Karlskoga-race in 1956.

    Even when this old photo shows it cornering the car today has higher front fenders.

    Ciao!
    Walter
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  18. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    May 15, 2003
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    #18 Boudewijn, Jul 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This photo comes indeed from the TT at Dundrod 2 September 1955 when Loens/Bonnier finished 18th. The first one is copyrighted Martyn Wainwright, the second I don't know.
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  19. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    #19 wbaeumer, Jul 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Boudewijn.

    So compare the color photo with this 2 images from today, the differences in the coachwork in the radiator-& headlight-section is much different. Also its clearly visible, that the air outtake in the left front fender is a feature the Loen`s A6GCS never had!

    Ciao!
    Walter
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  20. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    494
    I agree with everything written here and it is especially revealing that a car auction company (and they own the car outright according to Douglas Jamieson) gives the car to ANOTHER auction company in another continent with a currently weak currency. And they paint the car in a total different livery which the car in all probability never had with a Mille Miglia-like fake starting number.

    To my amazement I received some time ago two written appraisals by two German companies spezialising in Maserati sports racing cars, one of murky, one of excellent reputation (Methusalem and Capricorn - choose for yourself which to call what) which in a pseudo-scientific manner evaluate the car a being genuine.

    He who pays the piper calls the tune?

    Regards

    Wolfi
     
  21. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
    2,016
    San Francisco
    Was this the A3GCS which was for sale a few months back? Now red, I think?
     
  22. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,648
    Correct spelling: A6GCS.

    Yes, it was for sale! But don`t mix it with the ex-Musso car #2043 that is one of the very best examples of this type. It was sold to Italy with incredible paperwork!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  23. veloce49

    veloce49 Karting

    Jun 20, 2010
    173
    Chevy Chase MD
    The Tipo 60/61 Birdcage #2459 (?) did not sell. Top bid was $1,850,000.
    I think they said reserve was $2.2 million but not certain.
     
  24. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    #24 wbaeumer, Aug 20, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
    That this fake did not sell is good news!

    Did the A6GCS so called #"2065" sell? The other very dubious car with Mecum.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  25. veloce49

    veloce49 Karting

    Jun 20, 2010
    173
    Chevy Chase MD
    #25 veloce49, Aug 20, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
    #2065 not sold. Top bid was $1,700,000
     

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