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Discussion in 'Porsche' started by bobafett, Aug 15, 2005.
... are they really that different?
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80ccs. How big a syringe is it?
916 better graphics.
Graphics are the same??!
They were different one year for the 916...but those graphics were busier and worse than the regular, understated 916/996.
Reliability / build quality improved on the 916? I am leaning towards 996 just because it's newer and should, theoretically, be built better?
You are up already? Jet lag works in miraculous ways!
Yup, somewhat improved, but on the 996. Ducati learnt from the 916, and there was a large infusion of cash from TPG and production facilities were upgraded early on during the 996 production run.
The early 916, as well as most of the higher spec (SP, SPS, etc) bikes used a P8 ECU. Later bikes used more compact 5.9m and 1.6m ECUs. This really isn't a bad or good thing either way, some people prefer the P8 for its ease of tuning. The P8 also allows bikes equipped with dual injectors to fire at different times, I'm not sure if later ECUs allowed this. EPROM chips for the P8 are still available and cheap.
The regulator/rectifier units on earlier bikes also had problems with premature failure. The charging system on all of these bikes needs to be kept in top condition at all times. Not the most robust of designs, IMO. $200 at least if one goes bad.
During the period the 916/996 was built, Ducati apparently had some bad batches of rocker arms for the valves. It seems to effect most years to varying degrees of severity. The chrome plating would flake off, destroying the cam as well, if not repaired promptly. The ultimate solution is to use aftermarket rockers which have hard facing material welded on them, then ground down to the proper shape. Budget $1200 for parts and labor if they are bad.
The cush drive for the rear sprocket has been known to fail, which can lead to other more expensive parts being ruined as well.
There were many special models throughout the years. A 916SP is actually 955cc. A 916SPS is actually 996cc. A 996R is the new Testaretta engine design (see more below). FYI, the stock 996 jugs and heads will not fit on an earlier 916 case. The stud hole spacing is different for the bigger bore. However, it is possible to make a 916 into a 996cc displacement, but it involves case boring. Confused yet?
The 916 was available in the US for models years 1995-1998. The 996, 1999-2001 MY. Up through 1999, all standard bikes had 3-spoke wheels. On 2000 and 2001 MY 996's, they came with 5-spoke wheels that look better to my eye. 996's also have both headlights on all the time. Only 1998 MY 916's were available as Biposto, this was available on all years of 996. The styling on all of them is the same, with decals being the major difference. Red and Yellow were the only colors (the red color changed slightly though from year to year). The exhaust cans for a 996 are slightly bigger than the 916 exhaust as well.
Now to prices (only standard models considered). The prices for 916's seem to range from $6500 to maybe $9000 for a perfect one. A 996 will start at $8000-ish up to $11000.
So which one is the "best"? IMO, the 2002 998. Only made for the 2002 MY (and as 2004 limited editions in red & green), the 998 combined the styling of the 916 with the new testaretta engine. The new engine is superior in every way I can think of. Servicing, horsepower, torque, everything. Prices reflect this as well. A nice standard 2002 998 will set you back at least $12000. In time they will probably be worth more than the 03-04 999's.
Hope this helps
Thanks for the informative post. I've read up on the rocker problem and the Megacycle replacement.
It seems like there's a big bump in power from the 916/996 to the new testretta 998 engine. Given that this is a first bike, I'm going to keep it in the 916/996 range. With time, I'd like to move onto one of the MVs.
What are some of the common "need to do" mods to the 916/996s? It seems that everyone does the kick-stand bypass, lots of people get the ohlins up front, etc.
Upgrading to Ohlins would be an expensive option, $2000 if not more. I actually doubt if the benefit would be worth it, the cost/benefit ratio is very high. If you can find some used ones on Ebay, maybe.
Aftermarket exhaust, air filters, and chip can of course help power ($600-1500). Lighter flywheel makes the bike rev a little quicker ($150). Adjustable cam pulleys allow you to degree the cams. This can help low end power while not hurting top end, I will be doing this on my old bike this winter ($250).
Many people upgrade the clutch cylinder with a billet version ($250). Lighter clutch baskets are also available, but since they spin lower than crank speed, the benefit of their lower inertia is not as noticable as with the flywheel.
Evoluzione makes a low-temp fan switch that comes on at 85C instead of 100C. I have one on my 851, it works great. ($40)
The stock gearing is pretty high due to sound and emissions, enlarging the rear sprocket a couple of teeth is said to liven up the bikes. ($60). Without doubt get a case guard ($30). Trust me. http://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-motorcycles/ducati-case-guard/
A Corbin saddle ($250) and Heli bar raisers ($300?) could also make the ergonomics more livable.
If you want a bike that has had many mods already done to it, the speedzilla forum or ducati.net, usually has a few in their classifieds section. Just beware of thrashed track bikes, lots of 'em on there.
No they're not.
1994(5?)-1997 916 had "Ducati 916" diagonally. 996 had the 3 digits horizontally.
Whoa, this isn't your very first motorcycle is it??? The 916/996 bikes are definitely not good "first bike" material.
Dan, for a first bike, a 916 is way too much bike. Most 600s are, in fact. But it's your choice.
Lockhard double-bubble windscreen.
Chain guard and rear hugger, or you're going to be cleaning the rear shock a lot.
Make sure you get a rear wheel stand...makes lubing the chain a cinch.
Right...the huge Ducati 916 or 748 emblazoned diagonally was far busier and definitely more tacky-looking, no?
I don't want to pick up an AK 47, and hijack this thread. Some of the people here may smile with that comment. Hi Dan.
I had a Duc (748 Mono/yellow). They are all over the place.
What do you all think of the Benelli Tornado ? I know the performance ain't that great. However the bike looks trick, and go and try to find another one on the road. I was thinking of buying a Tornado. I am supposed to look at one Thursday AM in LA.
No. I liked it better as originally designed. JMO.
From what I have read has Benelli has currently shut down production of all the big road bikes, with probable bankruptcy. Not sure how reliable either part of that statement is, FWIW.
It is a gorgeous bike, but life is hard enough without trying to find unobtainable parts for an unreliable obscure italian bike. Make sure it is street legal too, a few months ago they had not passed US emissions.
talked to someone in the UK the other day, and he knows this stuff inside out. His candid advice was to steer clear of Benelli. He knows a lot more than I do, so forget our PM conversation and go with this as my advice...steer clear.
I bought a Ducati as my first bike too. That said, don't buy a 9*6 as your first bike. Have you ridden one? Go sit on one, and imagine yourself in traffic on it. As a died in the wool, bleed Ducati red, named my dog Desmo, multiple Ducati owning rider, I can say first hand that in most real world situations, a 996 truly sucks. Throw traffic laws to the wind and let 'er rip and they are awesome... ride like you enjoy having a license and they're a pain. Or at least not as fun (my opinion) as an older 900ss or any number of other bikes. I loved my '95 900ss... that would make a MUCH better 1st bike/Ducati in my book. You can buy mid-90s 900ss's for ~$4k all day long and they are great bikes. Or, try a Monster. I rode one on the Motogiro d'Italia this year and loved it. MUCH more enjoyable than a superbike would have been. (It was an S4 so had the 916 engine)
But you dont want to hear that. So...
There's a lot of good info given here already, I have a 2000 996 myself (The 5 spoke Marchesinis were the straw that broke the camel's back), and would agree that the 998 is a more desirable bike. As for 916 vs 996, my buddy just replaced the tired engine in his 916 with a 996 engine, and can't get over the difference. Before I get ragged on for comparing a tired 916 engine to a 996 engine, let me point out both engines were used, I don't see why most 916 engines wouldn't be similar in condition to his...
If you do buy a 9*6 as your first bike, don't bother with any go fast mods. You won't be able to exploit them. Corbin seat, bar risers (Pro Italia has top triples on sale for $99 that raise the bars BTW) and, um, I forget what other people mentioned. For sure regear it, unless you want a 1st gear that's a pain below about 40mph, and a 6th gear that's worthless below about 80... I know about five 9*6 owners and none of them have done the sidestand mod or changed the forks. It's your first bike. If you can ride it and tell me what you feel and why the forks need to be upgraded to fix it, you missed your calling in life...
I love Ducatis. More power to you for wanting one as your first bike. But go into it with your eyes wide open. A 9*6 is a terrible first bike for numerous reasons, not the least of which is it will require much more commitment on your part than you probably imagine. They are beautiful. They sound great. And they are uncomfortable, uncompromising, and high maintanence. For every person who claims they can ride one all day long with no problems, I can find five who can hardly stand to be on it more than an hour at a time. Hang around on speedzilla or any other Ducati site for a while and you will come across someone *****ing about their Ducati, they hate it, they wish they had bought a Honda, yadda yadda yadda...
By they way, as your first bike, it will most likely hit the ground at least once in the first year of ownership. Consider it a rite of passage. Heck, I didn't even make it 24 hours before my first one was on it's side... dropped it trying to do a slow turn (yes, i took the MSF course, it was 100% my own fault for doing somthing stupid). I did it in front of a guy I hadn't seen in years. Bless his heart, he helped me pick it up, made sure I was ok, and never once made me feel stupid. His story of dropping his BMW on his dad's newly painted Jag helped.... but not much.
And if you're truly bitten, none of this will make a difference and you're going to buy one anyway. Welcome to the club. ;-)
if this is your first bike I would pick up the cheapest 916 or 748 you can find and a nice set of leathers and do lots of track days. as for the power/speed of 916/996, my 916 has been tuned and dyno'd at ferracci at ~109 hp. the latest dyno was ~101, but it needs a tune up. and it is still has more power than I need.
Get a Euro spec 998S, same motor etc as the 996R (productionised version anyway,that is still in use in basic form with the current 999S), Ohlins suspension etc.
The 916 is somehow, just a twinge cooler.
In the same way that I like the 550 better than the 575.
Dan: a 916/996 will definately beat you up, but I know you like it rough
Dan: You may want to talk with Will Hart (Whart). He is relatively new at motocyclettas deportivo. He has a Duc.
Anyone know where a NEW 998 bike is forsale ?
I prefer a Mono. Color is not really important. I would also take the Matrix bike. I can put a C/F Mono seat on the back. I am really not interested in the 04 F.E. bike.
Ralph- I got rid of the Ducati (It was a 750 Monster anyway, not in the same league as a superbike). Depending on your degree of skepticism, there seem to be more than a few 2002 998's on cycletrader, and while proitalia is only currently offering a 04 'FE,' they might (subject to others who have dealt with them- I've only bought parts from them) be worth checking out. The other Ducati shop i like is BCM in New Hampshire- they know a ton about racing bikes. Bruce (who i since learned has sold the business, but still hangs out, mainly building racers) there is the man. Use my name if you call him.
I'm still kicking around the next (sports) bike. I love the MV's, but would only go for the 1000cc one, and while i'm at it, why not the Ago, and then, since it's only a few dollars more.... It makes the Duc's look downright cheap.
Not sure i'd start motorcycling on any of these, but heyk i guess my level of social responsibility tonight is at a new low.
Dan, I have a 998 and LOVE the testretta engine. BTW, Art is the MAN when it comes to ducs. Mike
Craig: very solid points of advice. I have no ego about 9*6 vs 900, my rationale was one of build quality and "reliability" (we use this term loosely, in a ferrari-esque sense) and that the later bikes are probably better in this respect. That said, I'll look into the 900. I was originally thinking about some honda/suk as a first bike and said wtf, why bother? As for dropping it - I wholly expect to. We'll see if I make it more than 24h, but I don't have my fingers crossed.
Jonathan - my intention originally was to only get a bike for track, learn there, and then maybe ride on the street a little. Not entirely practical (or likely), but that's where I wanted to be. Definetly agreed - all the protection in the world and expect to break the bike a lot.
Ralph: amusing my friend.
Stephen: shut up you ass. At least wait until I'm there to kill me.
Bill: see above. Curious if you get the MV... they are painfully beautiful.
Mike - Art's been VERY cool indeed. He put me in touch w/ Keith Code, who has graciously agreed to spend as much or little time with me as I'd like to get me up to speed (har har). I think track time w/ the two of them should be hugely beneficial.