Duemila Ruote Milano 25-27 November | FerrariChat

Duemila Ruote Milano 25-27 November

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Vereeken, Nov 28, 2016.

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  1. Vereeken

    Vereeken Formula Junior

    May 16, 2014
    264
    Belgium
    Disclaimer: This is my personal recollection of what happened and the story behind it. It is an expression of my personal views, nothing more. I am both Ferrari & Porsche owner and do not gravitate towards any of the two. Both have an equal talent of ripping my head off and emptying my bank account.

    The story

    Luigi Compiano was an avid collector of anything with four wheels, actually anything that has a wheel of some sort (bikes, sleds, motorboats...), and when it had Italian pedigree it stirred his powerboat ever so slightly more. Story has it he disliked paying VAT in the same proportions.

    To his defense it seems that his company -North East Services (NES)- tried to fend off the Italian Administrator as long as possible when it hit rough water and gave priority to paying salaries, rent and suppliers.

    Unfortunately, certain things in life are guaranteed. School, work, tax and death. In the end the Taxman always wins and he never rings twice; unless you live in Belgium.

    As a result of this Iron Law the Italian Government came in 2013 into the possession of what was known as the Treviso collection. An amalgamation of 948 pieces of (auto)mobile history. Pieces always intended to go fast or sideways. That was about the only line which I could draw in this very heterogeneous collection.

    Between 2013 and last week the Italian government sat on the lots as a hen on its nest. It took them three years to figure out what to do with this collection and how to turn metal into gold. Turns out they found the formula. Call RM Sotheby's. Whether this formula requires a landline or cellular is unknown at the time of writing.

    Which brings me to my second Iron Law. Laziness pays off. Had the Italian Taxman worked diligently and fast he would have peaked early and had missed out on the car-collector market bubble.

    The Auction

    In a stroke of genius RM Sotheby's organized the auction to coincide with Autoclassica Milano, Black Friday and the height of the HAGI-F, M, P, Z whatever index. Sheer brilliance.

    3-days of auction madness. The" Marathon de la Deumila Ruote".

    The Good.

    I think RMS did a fine job organizing this tax collection. The preview day was packed with people but the hall was the right size and you were allowed full access to all cars. This caused an issue for me as I was no longer making any progress after being stopped by the F40. I now understand its value. My sincerest apologies. Yes the Porsche 959 next to it is more usable and does not melt in your hand, but do I care? No.

    Reserve was off for all cars and estimates where low so as to lure in more bidders. Mission accomplished.

    The Lot description was limited but if you are not smart enough to understand the difference between a 575 F1 and a 550 Manual you need to start collecting Football shirts rather than cars. WiFi was available and Google works. Also in Italy.

    Also a small note to the French Porsche connoisseur. It is not because the tin says Carrera that it is not an SC. You can glue the Carrera script on the tin so that it covers the “911 SC” pin sized holes. RMS was correct. Ignorance might be bliss but knowledge gets you places.

    The Bad.

    RMS was taken by surprise. The inflow of non-registered bidders looked like the refugee scene out of World War Z, when half the world was trying to get into and behind the walls of Zion. All because they have cookies and the Zombies are at the gate of Hall 24.

    The staff was adequate and friendly but if you have to queue one hour as a registered bidder to get your stuff you are not making any friends. I believe RMS spread the staff over the registered and non-registered bidders in a last minute pest-control effort, but that was a bad move. Which brings me to my third Iron Law. He who pays upfront shall be served first.

    And now for a special service bulletin. Fiera Milano RHO; if you have knowledge of 2.000 pre-registrations would you not consider it a good idea to open a second coffee corner? You make money as an event organizer by extracting cash out of visitors pockets by offering a service for which they gladly would pay. Coffee is one of those services. Food is another. Just saying.

    The results.

    Faint at heart? Issues with your blood pressure? Sold a classic lately to pay for your kids tuition? Read no further.

    Things started off normal. Sure you had people paying top dollar for signs, and bikes, but it is a world I do not roam so little do I know if a rusted plate with bad spelling is worth 10.000 €.

    No, Lot 212 -a Jaguar XJ6 SWB for 3.000€ and change had all the makings of a normal auction start where -if you tread carefully- a deal could be made. But that warm feeling sped out of the large hangar door to my right about 20 minutes into the auction. Lot 228. A 1967 Porsche 911 2.0. Or at least 70% of that. 65.000€ hammer price plus premium and assorted costs. If the gentleman cared to have walked across the hall to Hangar 22 he would have noticed an immaculate example with everything attached for a bleak 90.000€ (negotiable).

    My feeling was thinking of making a NSYNC comeback after an M3 and E-type touched normal price levels but it quickly decided to never return after a 911 S 2.2 made 30.000€. Ha! I hear you say, that is a bargain these days. Yes, but not if the auctioneer is so kind to disclaim the VIN issue found on the chassis.

    Friday ended with strong bidding and no real deals. Porsche did well and Ferraris better. My uneducated guess would say all 30% above normal market levels.
    The highlight of my day? A 1998 Porsche Boxster for 12.000€ hammer price. So 16.000€ after paying RMS, the lifting of the lien and the transport out of the Hangar and back to planet Earth. Well done to the lady with the winning bid. Only 3 times its market value.

    My highlights:

    Lot 296 Alfa 75 Turbo IMSA 336.000€
    Lot 306 997 GT3RS 212.800€
    Lot 540 Escort MK 1 RS 1600 67.200€
    Lot 859 Ferrari 365 GTC/4 308.000€
    Lot 877 Ferrari F40 1.030.400€

    You can find all results at Results - Duemila Ruote 2016 | Classic Car Auctions | RM Sotheby's
    The results are including buyer premium.

    In summary…Everything Porsche or Ferrari collected strong money. Maranello’s and 575s went between 107.000€ and 212.000€. Jaguar is flat at best and anything that resembles “Luxo-barge” does not get any love at all. Do not bother with history or service records, sprinkle some fairy dust over the thing, call it an investment and see oxidized metal turn into gold.

    The winner of this marathon is the Italian state. Shame all this money is going to go into the bottomless pit that is called the State Budget and that part of that money will be used for increased regulation on cars all in the name of the sinking EU-ship.

    Oh, before I forget. Not a Chinese in sight.

    I will be landing back on planet Earth Wednesday and hope to see you all again at the next Intergalactic flight.

    Michel Vereeken
     
  2. MogulBoy

    MogulBoy Formula Junior

    Sep 23, 2004
    969
    Devon
    #2 MogulBoy, Nov 28, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
    A well written summary Michel.

    My hope is that the vendors who were present in the other halls at the AutoClassica were not too offended by the 'noise' generated by the auction and that many of the wonderful cars that these vendors offered for sale found new owners.

    My fantasy €1m budget would have been spent as follows:

    Lot 304 Alfa Sprint GTA €336k (I now want one of these more than I want a 275 GTB/4)
    Lot 509 Opel Manta GT/E €17,920 (why was this one overlooked when people go nuts for fast Fords?)
    Lot 594 Lancia Delta HF 'Jolly Club' Group A €336k
    Lot 859 Ferrari 365 GTC/4 €308k

    Regarding my last pick, for years I have overlooked the 365 GTC/4 as I formed the view that the styling was something of a dead end and overshadowed by the models that preceded and followed it, but I must say that this example looked stunning and when I sat in it, it just felt great. One question I have though was whether or not the interior trim might have been vinyl... Is that possible?

    Finally, I do feel sorry for the lady who paid €13,440+ for the scruffy 986 2.5L Boxster but spare a thought for the other punter who paid the same for Lot 889, a 1990 Fiat Panda 4x4! :)
     
  3. MogulBoy

    MogulBoy Formula Junior

    Sep 23, 2004
    969
    Devon
    #3 MogulBoy, Nov 28, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    P.S. The nicest Maranello that I saw at the show was this one offered by Rosso Challenge srl located just outside Monza.

    31,467 kms Rosso Corsa with no shields over a Nero interor with Daytona seats. Red stitching, carbon trim, quilted rear shelf, floating front rotors and a factory roll cage.

    It is still on Autoscout24.com with a €130k ask.

    https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/ferrari-550-maranello-allestimento-interno-speciale-gasoline-red-2dceb118-eb04-9279-e053-e350040ad6d3?cldtidx=13
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  4. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    629
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    #4 torquespeak, Dec 3, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I was there over the whole weekend. With a few exceptions, it was largely mad money for average cars. And in many cases not even complete cars.

    The hammer prices for the Daytona and F40 in particular were crazy.

    Full list of Ferrari lots below, with hammer+premium sale prices (NOT including the VAT on the premium) in EUR, GBP and USD going on RMS's rates on the day.

    -Ed
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  5. tres55

    tres55 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2012
    3,512
    Canada
    $1.1m USD for an F40 seems reasonable given current conditions, no?
     
  6. au-yt

    au-yt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2006
    5,834
    Burradoo... Actually
    Full Name:
    Graeme
    Michel thank you for a brilliant write up and safe landing for you return to Terra firma.
    This Auction certainly caught lots of peoples attention right around the globe and was discussed at length at a club breakfast meeting today in Cronulla.
    Its amazing what a swarm mentality does at an Auction

    I cannot help but wonder if RM will try the tactic again.
     
  7. jagmanv12

    jagmanv12 Karting

    Aug 25, 2010
    236
    Surrey UK
    Full Name:
    Mark
    An excellent report.
    I've heard in the trade this week that RM had bought all the cars from the taxman before the sale for 25m. Presumably enough to cover the taxes owed.
    Apparently the sale realised about 47m. Anybody confirm?
     
  8. MogulBoy

    MogulBoy Formula Junior

    Sep 23, 2004
    969
    Devon
    RM Sotheby's confirmed total sales of EUR51.26 million on its Twitter feed - a figure that would presumably include the buyers premiums.
     
  9. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
    4,283
    Eastdown
    Full Name:
    Darius
    RM told me that the cars belonged to the Italian government and the sale was on their behalf.
    I can't attest to that being true, but that's what they said, on the record, in writing.

    "Question: Who is RM Sotheby's selling the cars on behalf of - who is the vendor/current owner? The Italian state?

    Answer: RM Sotheby’s is working with a court-appointed trustee, selling the cars on behalf of the Italian government."
     
  10. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    592
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Pekka T.
    #10 Fennicus, Dec 4, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
    Hi,

    Yes, I was back up North (Lapland) already last Monday, but your desrciption is very accurate. I was there and suffered from serious dehydration before they finally started to pass water bottles to the endless "pre-registered" line.

    No Chinese, but on Saturday there was Japanese businessman with his wife who sat two rows to the front of me and won two lots, 304. hammer price €300k and 307. hammer price €260k. (He almost got if for €220k, but then there was another bid of €240k)

    Lots of other observations, most of the sports Jaguars were hopeless basket cases bought off e-bay, far too expensive, the Saloons were interesting European (motly Italian) deliver card with manual gearboxes (plus overdrive) but still the worlds most expensive 3.8 L S-types at €16k and €14k hammer prices, and the numerous 1990's XJS's also went for much more than they were worth IMHO, but the auction game is apparently very seductuve.

    Cheers,

    Pekka T.
    Fin.
     
  11. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    629
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    In my view, the F40 was a total dog.

    -Ed
     
  12. Vereeken

    Vereeken Formula Junior

    May 16, 2014
    264
    Belgium
    RM did not buy the lot from the Italian state.

    When you won a lot the lien (in 90% of the cases) still had to be lifted after RM confirmed your payment in full. This process would take 6-8 weeks. Cost to you 280€.

    It is unclear if the lots remained at HALL 24 or if they where taken to Menabue.

    Lifting by Menabue about 300€ plus 8€/day storage.

    Transportation to Belgium closed trailer: 1.000€, open trailer 700€

    Of course this is all peanuts if you have just bought LOT 540 for 67K€.

    i was talking to my engine builder in Milan trying to work out what we would bid for 540. AFter an hour of crawling around we decided that 17.500€ would be our max. We expected to make 5K on it after all was said and done (parting it out for pieces). I told him he was optmistic and wanted already to back out at 10K€. But I am known to be cheap.

    I must have missed something. I have an appointment scheduled with teh eye-doctor.
     
  13. Vereeken

    Vereeken Formula Junior

    May 16, 2014
    264
    Belgium
    Why? I taught it looked super. Sure there was no maintenance...but what did you expect...
     
  14. MogulBoy

    MogulBoy Formula Junior

    Sep 23, 2004
    969
    Devon
    #14 MogulBoy, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I don't know a great deal about Escort RS1600 Mk1's but appreciate that people will pay 'circa EUR67k' for a restored and road worthy example (which this one clearly was not).

    However Lot 540 could have been worth more than EUR10k to somebody just for the chassis number and without knowing anything about this particular car, I thought it looked like Dagenham's answer to the GTA and saw that was fitted with an interesting-looking Cosworth engine. It is a BDC or BDG? The green highlighted auxiliary belt would appear to be for the fuel injection but what about the red one?
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  15. Vereeken

    Vereeken Formula Junior

    May 16, 2014
    264
    Belgium
    Mechanically driven fuel pump is red.
    Not to sure on the pedigree of the car.
    The engine is good (but needs to revived/overhauled)
    Gearbox was ZF dog leg 5 speed
    BUT...
    The engine was mounted way back = non FIA compliant.
    The radiator is from a truck.
    The dashboard was gutted.
    The doors where gutted = new ones cause non FIA compliant.
    The shell was cut up and fibre glass extensions where added....

    But again my appointment stands with the eye-doctor. I hope she is good looking.
     
  16. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    The red one looks like an oil pump, could be an oil cooling system for gearbox and/or differential.
    The serious mods suggest a history of competition of some sort. It has to be quite a special competition to fetch that price but who am I. Rare for sure.
     
  17. Vereeken

    Vereeken Formula Junior

    May 16, 2014
    264
    Belgium
    No red arrow really is fuel pump trust me.

    The device is both electrical (at startup) and mechanical (running) at the same time....pretty neat.
     
  18. MontpellierVanMan

    Dec 10, 2016
    31
    Montpellier, France
    Full Name:
    Rory
    I went to the RMS auction intending to get another E-Type, but of course didn't for the reasons that other contributors mention, above.

    My take on the 21 E-Types are related here on the UK E-Type Forum :

    Milan Auction RMSothebys - 21 E-Types under the hammer ? - The 'E' Type Forum

    and the principal post contained this, of which the quotes taken from Kidston's K500 web-site are amongst the most telling - see the end :


    RMSothebys aren't daft, they knew full-well that silly estimates would bring people flocking in for a bargain, and that's exactly what happened.

    Some 88% of bidders were said - by RMS - to have been "new to auctions", ignoring even "the most basic working of such events".

    Milan was infected with auction-fever, there were probably 1.000 + people just sitting around the dias alone, plus the crowd standing up, and it never went quiet over the 3-days I was there.

    I didn't see another single person underneath a car, so with my boiler-suit, torch, screwdriver, and note-book, I sounded a rather jarring note of reality in this sea of euphoria.

    People seeing cars "in an auction" seemed to assume that they must therefore be a bargain, and everyone wanted a piece of the action.

    Late on Sunday, past 6.30pm on a cold, damp, dark evening, and only a couple of lots from the end, when the 1977 6-Cyl XJC (Lot 947) went for 31.360€, one of the auctioneers texted me "madness, like the whole auction".

    This for a car that hadn't run for 20 years, had a sagging head-lining, and mould all over the interior and the boot.

    The commission was actually 12%, plus 22% VAT on the commission, which is only 14.6% on the hammer price. There were one or two vehicles where VAT went on the whole value but they were few and far between.

    Of the 21 E-Types I inspected, there was just ONE that I thought was worth having - whatever the prices on the others ; the other 20 were crocks that required big money spending on them.

    The good one was a black 1966 4.2 S1 FHC with a mainly excellent rebuilt shell, new bonnet, new front frames, nice plating, traces of competent and careful handiwork everywhere, and fitted with new wires and five XVS Michelins which always says something ; but the RH door shut-lines would require panel-work, the interior was new but not right and would need redoing, the dash and instruments needed serious freshening up, and you'd still have had to beat the 151.200€ it went for. And all you got was an invoice, no log-book, no chassis plate even.

    I came away reassured about how nice mine was, how I could now justify treating myself to a complete interior, and how I pitied the poor souls who bought some of these cars either without looking at them, or without knowing what they were looking at.

    The 1965 4.2 S1 OTS that went for 134.400€ had a sprinkling of non-original parts all over the place, and had at some point been stripped back to bare-metal everywhere, apparently by something ghastly like dipping - so all the areas that hadn't been painted were rusty, and that was just what you could see. Opening the air-vents at knee-level revealed teaspoons of rust.

    For the 1962 3.8 OTS that went for 156.800€ I had noted "restored, but poor, botched".

    For the 1962 3.8 FHC I wrote "shut lines poor, sills f----ed, various nasty bits under the bonnet, rust everywhere", yet it fetched 147.840€.

    Someone paid 140.000€ for a 1964 3.8 OTS - "scruffy, grubby, body rough".

    145.600€ got you a 1963 3.8 OTS - "scruffy and botched".

    The "racer" 1963 3.8 FHC in grey had all sorts of boy-racer stuff on it that wasn't quite right, according to the RMSotheby's contact, and it went for 136.640€ - tho' the body was excellent.

    For the 1963 3.8 OTS I wrote "suspect make-over underneath, something not quite right about the car, many odd-looking parts" - 173.600€ to you.

    The US model 1968 4.2 S1 in bronze was qualified as "poor, and f-------". 69.440€

    To quote Kidstons500 opening line in their Milan résumé yesterday,

    "Many came expecting a bargain ; hardly anyone left with one, and there will be a few faces reflected in the shaving mirror thinking "what have I done" ?

    and, which says it all,

    Many buyers could have bought a better car at a cheaper price from the many sellers at the Milano Autoclassica show held in the same halls (Ed. and on the same weekend).
     
  19. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    592
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Pekka T.
    Hi,

    Well put, almost etirely true, except I was under many cars! :) but unfortunately not so much on Thursday as I too spent over three hours in the "pre-registered" line. All I needed to do once I got to the counter was to show my passport to get my badges. Before that the hundereds of people in front of me either had some paper missing, needed to pay their registration, ask silly questions or they just were in the wrong line or did somehing wrong. It took over 20 minutes for one case and the poor people behind the desks also needed their breaks.

    But I did not need to get under the two Mexicos to see they were rusty, neither did I get under any of the E-types, now I know them well, but none of them were for me or any of my friends. I did document many details on a few of the E-types that were still "as they were" when apprently bought off e-bay US, and had unrestored original parts and worn interiors. Like lot 850 the "1965" 4.2L OTS.

    I mostly took photos of the underbodies and typical rust traps on many cars, like the S-types, 420G's and XJ's and XJS's. But I didn't have a screw driver in my hand, unlike was that Simon himself, or you? (I think I may have gotten the quoted text wrong)

    I was able to get a nice Canadian RM mechanic to use the screwdriver so we took off the A-pillar metal covers on two of the unidentified 250 GTE bodies so a friend and his "telaio" buddies would know which cars those bodies came off from. Two other bodies we easier to identify.

    But again agree, almost everything went for silly money, the XJ6C mentioned there (lot 947) was a max. bid of €3k on my papers. I did bid €8 for lot 523, a S1 XJ12, euro spec, Italian delivery, but two internet bidders beat me by €1500, but it's ok as €10k for that car would have been too much already.

    And you are right about the AutoClassica expo, I think a gentleman from Austria bought the 9000km 456GT from there (I had seen it in Padova, same spec as mine, except that my JPN 1995 model still had the steering wheel without an airbag) and I could have bid on the rather rare manual +o/d Daimler Sovereigns, but there was a much nicer similar spec car for sale also outside in the expo. The same applies for the Lancia Ardea. The one in the auction was "too far gone" and basically needed everything done, when ASI certified running registered cars were availabe at the expo from €8k up.

    This was very much like the Aalholm auction in Denmark in 2012, except even bigger and crazier! :D

    Cheers,

    Pekka T.
    Fin.

    Ps. And also many cars still had stuff inside them that the RMS people had not noticed or taken oit, one S-type had a MK2 Owner's handbook in the door pocket, the Ardea had the original keys in the glove box, etc. The Flavia Coupé and the several nice Flaminia GT's had original leather seats that on Thursday were still ok, but on Saturday they were torn and stiched ripped up after hundreds of people had sat on the bone dry leather seats. :(
     
  20. MontpellierVanMan

    Dec 10, 2016
    31
    Montpellier, France
    Full Name:
    Rory
    Hi Pekka, nice to know there was someone else lying underneath.
    My Milan trip continued afterwards with the Enzo Museum in Modena, a fatal detour as I am now looking for a 550 to sit alongside the Jag.
     
  21. pzvonicek

    pzvonicek Rookie

    Aug 11, 2021
    1
    Prague
    Full Name:
    Pavel
    Nice to meet you here some years later. I bought that XJ12 in auction. It was lot of mechanical work to bring it to life. Now I am enjoying it much.

    Pavel
     

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