E-Z Timing Belt Swap? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

E-Z Timing Belt Swap?

Discussion in '348/355' started by pnicholasen, Jan 14, 2020.

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  1. pnicholasen

    pnicholasen Formula 3

    Jan 14, 2011
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    Paul Nicholasen
    Well, yes and no. It's not horribly difficult to drop it out, although I've found putting it back in to be a PITA. Trying to get the cradle in, then trying to get the bolt holes lined up is no walk in the park. Getting those forward 12 bolts lined up perfectly so they will catch the threads in the bulkhead can be frustrating as h*'ll. Then there's bleeding all the fluids, getting those big computer plugs threaded through the little tunnels in the bulkhead...etc. etc.
    But I digress...my point is if you don't do-it-yourself, no matter how hard or easy you personally feel it is to do, it's damned expensive, and knowledge of that doesn't enhance the desirability of these models. My original pondering was if there was some way to lessen that bite, how much would it improve the market for these cars? Maybe not at all...I suspect we'll never know. On the other hand when the computers and display screens on the current crop of cars go bad and they are no longer replaceable or repairable, the value of our relatively simple analog cars may go go crazy.

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  2. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
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    then i'm the luckiest SOB on the planet, because all 12, first shot. (meaning the next major in 6 years from now will be a PITA)
     
  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Dropping a fuel tank has it's own issues. The plastic fittings on the vent hoses become brittle and frequently break. They aren't easy to get at (with the engine in the way) and are expensive to replace. Of course if the tank isn't empty, you need to deal with that.

    Once you have the tank out, you still don't have a lot of working space. I did a water pump on a 355 a while back. Here's what it looked like. Still a lot of things in the way.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  5. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    This is one of the reasons people call them "stealership"
     
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  6. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
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    Nope I did not but I know you can change belts from behind the seat. Ferrari eliminated the need to drop motors. I'm not saying its better or worse, I'm simply saying it is not needed to drop motors for belts post 355 thus its cheaper to do is ALL I am claiming.

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  7. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
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    This may be true yes but its interisting. If it was the cradle its one thing but if it's that main cross member then that's a whole other problem.

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  8. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I love threads like this.
     
  9. pnicholasen

    pnicholasen Formula 3

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    Me too. That's why I started it. Always interesting to toss ideas around and get opinions from those with experience. Maybe we should start an Online University of 348. " Earn a degree in your spare time! "

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  10. cactussed

    cactussed Karting

    Mar 12, 2008
    232
    My 2c would be that a garage will generally opt for engine out as they can charge more (and see more of what's going on, so you're aiming at the DIY fan (which may or may not be a growing subset of owners as the cars age).

    For the DIY guy at home, very few will have access to a proper 4 post lift, so will be working with 2 jacks which I suspect will make dropping the cradle arguably a better option as there's not much room to drop the tank with just jacks and then not a lot of space to crawl under and do anything.

    A better idea (IMHO) would be to make a wiring harness adaptor which ran from the ECU's behind the seat to a plug at the bulkhead. I've found my biggest bugbear is threading the looms in and out of a hole that is 0.0005mm bigger than the sodding plugs. If you could simply reach down and unplug the loom from a clip in the engine bay (like Porsche do) it'd be very helpful.

    the rest is fairly straight forward (assuming its been done before and everything isn't rusted / siezed solid). I seem to recall the 2 spanners on the power steering line being difficult last time...
     
  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    I read that Jenni Helms, head mechanic of Scuderia Rampante can remove a 348 engine in 2 1/2 hours. At that speed, why not remove the engine?
     
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  12. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Less than 2 hours:
     
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  13. cactussed

    cactussed Karting

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    2 hours is mad. I've don 5 hours on my own being methodical.
     
  14. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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  15. pnicholasen

    pnicholasen Formula 3

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    He has better technique than me. I have to go inside the interior, remove the panel behind the seats, unplug the computer harneses as well as some other wire connectors and use 4 letter words trying to stuff it all through the bulkhead. The video guy never even had to open the doors. Must be an obstetrician...used to removing things through small orifices.

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  16. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    If I had a large work space, the car is prepped on a 2 post lift, all the tools laid out in sequential use on a table, a rig for the engine to rest on, and I was trying to set a record, I can probably blast through 3-4 hours. But slower is better. You have to stop for a beer, you know.
     
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  17. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    He probably spent 3 hours or so dealing with the ECU harnesses and what not but did not show in the video. What I like is that it can be done without a workshop lift.
     
  18. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
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    it's even easier if you can get the entire car up about 15"-18" off the ground.

    sjd
     
  19. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    I watch that video several times and to be frank, I don't get anything out of it other than …

    1. You can do it wearing flip flops
    2. You can do it in a garage without opening the door
    3. You can do it with two jacks
    4. He also has a Ducati 998.

    It really does not tell me much more
     
  20. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    When I was 18 I had a 1988 Ford Mustang. It needed a new serpentine belt. Ford wanted to charge me 45 minutes. I took it to an independent, it took the guy about 20 seconds and it was so quick I didn't even get a chance to get to the waiting room, I stood right there and watched him. And, he didn't charge me anything.
     
  21. pnicholasen

    pnicholasen Formula 3

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    Ah yes...the dreaded dealer flat labor charge based on the "book" estimated time needed. Of course that is based on throwing instructions and a few tools into a room with the car and a few chimpanzees and timing the whole thing.
    That raises a question. The original premise of this thread was how to drop the cost of a "major" to make ownership a little easier. I don't know what a quote for a 348 major from a Ferrari dealer would be, but I'm guessing somewhere between $5 - 7K. But you can be sure that's based on the book charge. One wonders how many hours it actually takes an experienced technician to do it, and what the cost would be if they charged hourly rate. If they could drop the engine in 2.5 hours and get it back in in 3.5 hours, then allow 4 hours for belt change, valve clearance check etc I suspect the bill wouldn't be quite so scary.
    Problem solved!!

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  22. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Book rate is 40 hours for a 348 engine out tune up. At $245 per hour, that is close to $10K labor. Add $2000 for parts and you are at 12K$ before any while you are in there stuff adds up. This is dealer pricing, of course, but if you are taking it to a dealer for this job then you get what you get.

    We DIYers keep forgetting that we are the minority of owners who actually work on their cars, and even fewer of us who would remove engines to work on a car. The majority of Ferrari owners who are quite well-to-do have much better things to do and would just write a check. The trick is to know whom to write a check for.
     
  23. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    And like I said,

    The cars where designed to make perpetual revenue in my opinion. $10,000 labor to change a $100 belt, it has to be on purpose.
     
  24. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Maybe just for kicks I do an engine in belt change the next go around?

    Muuuaaahahahahaaaaa!!!!! :D
     
  25. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    #50 INTMD8, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    Zero.

    The amount of work to drop the tank, engine then cut out the the main bulkhead after properly bracing it, fabricate end pieces and welding them in with perfect fitment then re-installing..... You are already at one major service, plus fuel tank, plus a ton of labor and some parts and you have a cut car with a main structural component now bolted together.

    Would have to from that point on remove the fuel tank and crossmember to squish yourself up in front of the engine in order work on it and I for one would not want to be setting up dial indicators and degree wheels from that position. (how much time have you saved at that point)

    If somehow it ended up saving you money over the course of several services (couple hours here and there?) you're probably 15 to 20 plus years into it with the best of luck and no one would want the car with the question of possible loss of structural integrity.

    There is no way enough effort involved in properly removing the driveline to warrant this.
     
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