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Early 275 question

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by JohnMH, Sep 23, 2012.

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  1. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    .....
    Steve.No reflection on you but had one too many bad experiences with those two in the late 1980's....... I told them once that their adds should carry a health warning......
     
  2. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950
    Did not put them on a scale.
    It's about the feeling. Did 2 Tour Auto with the SWB among other things, and this is cumulative 3500 miles. And one TA with the GTB SN. Blew up the engine last day at Le Castellet at the end of the straight, 4 th gear at 7750 rpm,,,put a lot of oil on the piste...a valve dropped and got smashed between the piston and the head..not a nice event.
    But nothing to do with the car or the transmission. Still the car on narrow B roads feel much bigger and wider than the SWB.

    I also had a very nice and very original 4 cam and yes the engine is very different. As i said before, it pulls like a turbine, best comparison is the Daytona engine.
    Daytona is even a bigger car, drove around Maranello and Firenze for the 40 th anniversary, ( standard cars are not eligible for TA) , not really fit for small roads, but on wide roads, motorway and Mugello, the engine ( talking of street engine, 352 hp, not a 450 monster G4) seem never to stop going up. One of the few cars I regret parting with, although I bought the same short nose twice ( I think only a few collectors ever bought the same car 3 times...) and if double count it, I am with my 4 th GTB!
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,013
    Cardiff, UK
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    Steven Robertson
    I understand, Paul. As I'm sure you're aware, Mark has sadly passed away and it is not in my nature to pass negative comments on people, especially on someone no longer here to defend himself.
     
  4. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    A very elegant and noble gesture Steve.
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    Thank you, Dyke. So about a 60KG and 5% difference which I think is significant on a light car.
     
  6. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Great, that is good to have this figure now. I agree 50kg is no small difference considering how light the cars were in those days. Thanks.
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,013
    Cardiff, UK
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    Steven Robertson
    Thank you, BIRA. In my quest to find out how light the SWB is, and I do believe the difference in weight and size is enough to make a difference in the driving experience and dynamics, what has become clear is also how light the 275 GTB and 275 GTB/4 are????
     
  8. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    Well, if his brother is still with us , please pass on my comments
     
  9. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,493
    West Hills, CA
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    Edwin K. Niles
    To answer the original question, IMHO the market overplays the difference. As you now know, there were three different drive-shaft configurations. The earliest had a solid connection at both ends, and were OK as long as the engine and trans were perfectly aligned. Trouble could arise if the engine or trans were moved and not perfectly aligned, or if the shaft got bent. The second series alleviated the first problem, but there was still a tendency toward throttle-steer if the tires were not a perfect pair.
    I think the torque-tube came along more or less simultaneously with the long nose, so that discussion is not relevant to your question.
    I have enjoyed all variations, including the vaunted C, and can only say that the condition of the car is, in my opinion, far more important than the variations.
    Don't know that I helped; just my 2c.
     
  10. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,807
    Steve: Just to keep some more "real" weights in this discussion, an alloy 275 GTB weighs 2,608 lbs with toolkit and spare tire, but no fuel. I will have to look up my records, but my memory is that a steel 4 Cam weighs about 2,850 lbs. under the same conditions (the dry sump system and twin cam heads add weight to the car). I have weighed lots of cars over the years and the "real" numbers are sometimes surprising. For instance, a 365 Boxer weighs LESS than a US Version 308 GTS (that's why 365s are fast), and GTOs are heavier than people think. Just weighed a 500 TRC this morning and it is 1,767 lbs, which sounds light until you compare it to a Tipo 60 2 liter Birdcage Maserati which scales at 1,427 lbs. and makes the same power.
     
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  11. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 15, 2006
    15,624
    Sydney
    Because the chassis is under engineered, seeing a BB in stripped condition is downright alarming!
     
  12. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    That's great, Dyke. Your input is very much appreciated. I think light weight in a rigid chassis is the key to a truly exciting car. I'm being greedy now but would you also know the true weight of the SWB Competizione and the SEFAC Hotrod/Comp/61 cars that were even lighter again with 1.1mm gauge alloy for the body and thinner round tubing in certain areas lightening the chassis? With those big barrel 46DCL Webers, hot cams and valves with stripped out interior and no sound proofing they must have been fantastic. On researching them I have come to understand the great appeal of all 250 SWB variants and the large difference in price between them.
     
  13. greg246

    greg246 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 2, 2004
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    Yes, I was surprised when I saw mine naked :eek: Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    I am not qualified to say whether the Boxer chassis is under engineered or not. However, it's the first time I've seen it described as such as was your comment in the Daytona thread regarding its chassis flex. The high centre of gravity at the rear with the gearbox located under the engine has been discussed at length but I was just looking at a picture of the bare frame in Nathan Beehl's book on the Boxer and it looks pretty substantial to me. The gist of Nathan's section on the chassis is that it's traditional Ferrari constructed with oval and rectangular tubing, over engineered and extremely strong. He also says that a number of owners have good reason to thank Ferrari for the strength and integrity of its chassis.
     
  15. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    It is funny that a BB discussion finds its way into this thread. I posted on a thread in the BB/TR section concerning the relative value of a BB compared to other cars. FWIW, I love my BB, but the high cofg and the tall XWXs give it a slightly floaty ride, but as I bought mine to enjoy the original 1978 experience that is fine with me. The chasses seems quite stout, even without any real bracing under the seats.

    Concensus appears that the early 275 is prettier, but slower, underbraked and more prone to bad setup. (I imagine that as with all things Ferrari, a PPI by a qualified expert goes without saying). However, it also sounds like there really is no fix for the driveshaft issues; over time, as engine mounts sag and the drivetrain goes out of alignment (or if the car was crashed and not repaired properly) consequences will become apparent. The brake issues seem solveable in comparison.

    Still, the shape (and sound) might make it worthwhile, even if the 4 cam has better performance.
     
  16. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950

    All Classic Ferrari are prone to bad set up. Including because few people drove them in period and are still there to tell us, and Ed ( Niles) cannot test drive all our cars to check! Furthermore a lot of people assume as they are old cars the suspension, steering, brakes have to be so so...this is not true, we test drive and tweak them until we get the proper feel, but not re engineer them!
    I think I mentioned in other post how my 250MM came with some plastic blocks to stop the movement of the front axle towards the chassis instead of reshaping the leaf springs,,,but did 2 Tour Auto and 2 MM like this. And yes, not only uncomfortable, but also dangerous.
     
  17. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950
    Agree 100% with you Ed, and would add mechanical condition,,,rather than cosmetic,,as some people might be confused!!!
     
  18. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950
    But the best power to weight ratio is definitely with the LM, whether or not you call it 250!
    No comparison with anything else that I know/ drove, but I never drove a 512M..will have to wait...still doing Tour Auto with a 512M seem quite an achievement looking at the ground clearance. The LM had to be set up an inch higher for that! Let's hope that DR takes his on TA.
     
  19. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,807
    I have done my best to stay out of the 275 discussion, but I must add some comments.

    1. There is a "fix" for the solid coupling driveshaft cars. I believe that Roelofs makes a CV Joint conversion kit that will make the car like the later factory CV joint cars. Problem solved.

    2. I have had a 275 GTS with the solid couplings ( all GTS were solid coupling cars) for 38 years. Once aligned correctly, never a problem and no vibration. I converted our 275 GTB solid coupling car to a "factory" CV joint setup 25 years ago.

    3. The brakes are "reasonable" for the era. We did try to add a vacuum reservoir tank on the GTB/C that we raced and found little benefit.

    4. There is a way to align the driveshaft using a laser that I developed that will solve all the issues. The problem most people have is that they do not understand that the shaft must be "straight" in both directions. Having the shaft straight from the clutch to the transaxle does not guarantee the shaft will be straight from the transaxle to the clutch (think about it). I can give more info to anyone who needs the details.

    5. Without question, the torque-tube cars are the smoothest, but a CV Joint car is almost as good. A correctly set up solid coupling car is very close, but you can always convert a solid coupling car to the CV's using the Roelof parts.

    6. I will dispute the claimed performance advantage of the 4 Cam, as I can provide dyno numbers for each version 275, and the 6 carb two cam with the high performance carb set up (there were two versions from the factory) makes more power than the 4 Cam.

    7. I do not know where the claim of a 2 Cam having "weak" bottom end power comes from. As I have owned and driven 275's for over 40 years and never found that to be the case. I believe the individual who made that statement also said he had not driven a 2 Cam car. To understand this topic, you must realize the various versions of both the 2 and 4 Cam that were produced, for instance, the 4 Cam is limited in performance by less valve lift then a 2 Cam, and has smaller choke tubes than the high performance version of the street 2 Cam. 4 Cams can be made to run very well, but a few distributor and carburetion changes are required. I am not in any way trying to disparage the 4 Cam, it is an great car and and more sophisticated than the 2 Cam cars. The 275 GTB/4 belongs at the top of the best Ferraris ever built, but to claim that they are faster than a good six carb 2 Cam is just not true.
     
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  20. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    It comes from experts in the automotive world testing the cars and giving their opinion. Read all the magazines: Car & Driver, Osprey, Octane, Classic cars, Classic & thoroughbred cars- they clearly state it: The 2 cam (non 6 carb) has not the same responsiveness and does not pull in low gears. The 6 Carb 2 cam version is an exception and that is why this car is priced towards the GTB /4 although the GTB/4 still commands an extra 1-200'000USD. There is a reason why GTB/4 are much more valuable than all other GTB versions (except 4cam alloy).
    The market is telling you clearly that the GTB/4 is performance wise a better car. Period. If its faster I am not sure but I never claimed that it was. I said it was better, more responsive, better pull through in the gears.
     
  21. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
    1,807
    Saran: With all due respect, and I do not want to make an issue of this, if you choose to believe magazine writers as "automotive experts" you will find yourself misinformed on many topics. Especially in the area of older cars, the individual vehicle and how it has been maintained will have a great influence on the driving experience. If a magazine drives a poor running car, their opinion will be influenced because they just do not have adequate experience with that type of vehicle. Over the years, I have worked with numerous magazine writers and unfortunately do not have a high opinon of most of them in their ability to recognize when a car is good and when it is not. We would be better served if more 275 owners would share their views of the cars performance. I am not asking anybody to take my opinons as fact, though I have owned 275s for 40 years and have driven them at least 20,000 miles. I have either owned or have extensive mileage in every 275 version and have worked on every variant.
     
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  22. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,807
    Steve: As to your question about the weights of the Hot Rod SWB's, I can not help with much clarity. In 2005 I worked on 2767, but the work was primarily engine related and apparently I did not weigh the car. 2443, another early 1961 Comp car is under my care and it weighs 2,407 lbs using my usual parameters. Unfortunately, 2443 was badly crashed when only 4 weeks old and lost its alloy body. When the car was repaired in the 1960s, it received a steel body, so it is not a good representative of the Hot Rod cars.
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Thank you, Dyke. Your expert reply is very much appreciated. I was looking at pictures of 2443 today. When weighed did it have its Hot Rod stripped out interior? At 2407 pounds with its steel body it weighs quite a bit less than the 2575 pounds of your similarly bodied steel car then. So obviously there has been a lot of lightening going on in areas other than the body. With a 1.1mm alloy body its going to weigh quite a bit less again. I wonder what the diffference in weights are of the bodies themselves between the Steel, Competizione and Hot Rod/Comp 61?
     
  24. yale

    yale Formula Junior

    May 2, 2004
    744
    New York City
  25. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Well I actually partially agree with you. Ofcourse I would treat your opinion more highly than automotive journalists simply because you have so much experience in terms of direct ownership. However the market over the longer term is usually right in pricing different things- and it prices the GTB/4 consistently over any other 275 Variation (excluding alloy and GTB/C models). So a direct question to you: Would you chose a 6carb 2cam version over a GTB/4? Would you chose an alloy 2cam over a GTB/4 cam? I appreciate your feedback.
     

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