Early 275 question

Steve: Just realized that 2443 was weighed without a toolkit or spare tire, so you should take those items into considertion when comparing weights. We use 2443 as a race car only. The interior when weighed is pretty well stripped out, but does have a modern roll bar installed which adds some weight.

 

Saran: Very good questions that I am not sure I can answer objectively.

1. Personally, I think the best 275 is an alloy, torque-tube, six carb 2 Cam. I base this upon performance as one criteria. Also, since we do almost all the work on the cars in my own shop, I tend to like the greater mechanical simplicity of the 2 Cam cars. They are just easier to work on. Also, there are more alloy 2 Cams than alloy 4 Cams.

2. With that said, I still believe the 4 Cam is one of the great Ferraris. These cars have it all; sound, great performance, looks and a nicer fit and finish than many of the earlier 2 Cam variants. 4 Cams did have drivability issues from the factory. Most came with S85F distributors which helped create the dreaded "4 Cam leap" where the car seems to bog slightly when driving off and then takes off without any help from the driver. A change to the more common S85A units will cure this, and the factory went to the S85A in the later 4 Cam production. Also the 4 Cam uses 29 mm chokes and this tends to strangle the engine in the upper rpm ranges. The high performance 2 Cam six carb setup uses 32 mm chokes. You can run 4 Cams with 32 mm chokes and pick up another performance gain.

Remember, Ferrari brought out the 4 Cam as a marketing reponse to Lamborghini, as they felt they were falling behind techincally in the supercar wars. It was not designed to be an enhanced level of performance. Ferrari simply found they did not have enough parts in their cars, so they added more parts. The 4 Cam uses a late 2 Cam torque-tube block (Tipo 213/66). The only major changes mechanically are the heads and the dry sump system.

 

I personally believe that the price difference has nothing to do with performances. Otherwise a Daytona would be more expensive than a TDF..actually drives better, no doubt,,,and I drove extensively and owned both. And on same cars, in some cases the premium is on early versions, or for Miuras on the last version where I prefer the early cars in lighter chassis tubes..all matter of taste and fashion, I would not assume that market prices reflects educated judgement. Just market preferences.

Having said that the best 275 is the GTB/C and if someone prefers the short nose, go for one of the 10 competition client. Preferably one with competition history but that has not been crashed! And few are RHD,,so not too much choice, but still available from time to time.

 

Bira: You have made a interesting and valid point about the GTB/C. I did not include it in my comments as, especially the twelve 9000 range cars are so very different in construction and driving experience from the road cars. My comments were directed to the road cars. I was lucky enough to own a 9000 number car for fifteen years. They are pure competition Ferrari and have little in common with the road cars. Engine with three carbs (a homologation snafu by Ferrari) was weak under about 4,000 rpm and then took off up to about 7,500 rpm. Ride was decidedly race like. Handling was much more responsive, due to stiffer springs, different shock valving and much lighter weight of 2,458 lbs with spare tire, but no fuel. Brakes were about like the street cars, with only the pads changed to DS11 material and "quick change pins" in the calipers.

Steve: I found my weight for a steel 4 Cam-- 2,865 lbs with spare tire and toolkit.

 

I appreciate your answer very much thank you.

 

You make valid point. Ofcourse performance is not the only factor and in respect to the 275 series I think rarity, and better also play a big part. 275GTB/4 were just better cars with less problems due to the problems being worked through from earlier versions. But performance must also play a small role. 3.3 L versus 3.0 L for 2 cams and the fact that the 4cam engine is more or less the same engine as the 250LM (perhaps Ferrari's greatest race car) must also entice buyers? Also you can tell me what you like but a 3 Carb will never be as interesting or sought after as a 6 carb, even if its simply from a purely aesthetic point of view.....

 

All 275GTB are 3.3 litres. Nearly all 250LM had 3.3 litres apart from the first few? which were 3.0 litres and all had 2 cams not 4.

 

Ok my mistake, I thought 2cams were 3.0L but they (all 275) were indeed all 3.3L. But not all 2 cams had 6carb that I think I can say with quite some certainty. All GTB/4 had 6carbs.

 

I was wondering: That great 'howling' noise that my 4cam gives me during long drives and that sound at 7'500rpm, as if my engine is going to explode (in a good way if that is possible), does that come from the 6carb? Would a 3 carb 2 cam car do the same from a noise point of view? Perhaps BIRA and MIURASV and others can comment....

 

That is correct. I think a lot of people may like the 275GTB (2) because it's the ultimate development of the 2 cam engine, and the connection to the preceeding great 250 Ferrari models such as the TdF, SWB Berlinetta and GTO etc and with the 6 carbs it's like a hot rod or special version of that engine? Others may prefer the sophistication of the 275GTB/4 with its 4 cams and 6 carbs as standard.

 

All 250, 275, 330 and 365 engines have that beautiful V12 howl at high revs as does every other Ferrari V12 of course in varying degrees. I think some of the sound effects can be attributed to the Weber carburettors? An engine with bigger size carb chokes or 6 instead of 3 will make a difference too to the induction roar and better breathing at higher revs (though not necessarily at lower revs) allowing higher revs and scream. With 4 cams there must also be more mechanical noises going on but I don't think that will make much difference to the howl, though it may change the note? Some of the models will be more muffled than the others so the exhaust will make a difference too. That said, and although it was a very long time ago, one of the most beautiful and musical notes from an engine I've ever heard came from a 330GT 2+2 which has 2 cams and 3 carbs. I'm sure the others will give better answers to your question.

 

Dyke, thanks for your replies about the weights. It's not a 4 cam but is this the kind of bogging down you mean or is it the inflexibilty of the engine caused by big carb chokes this car may be breathing through at low revs as demonstrated in the first vid? Great sounds from all 275GTB cars here.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfty8MSPtiY[/ame]

275GTB/6C

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgdEc_kuBt0[/ame]


275GTB/4

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409pgpKujJU&feature=fvwrel[/ame]

275 GTB (3 Carbs).

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8V1AXRv7iM&feature=related[/ame]

275 GTB with 6 Carbs.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EpOUSLz8-o&feature=related[/ame]

 

Steve: The first video illustrates that the Ferraris of that era were never designed to be drag raced! They have relatively small displacement engines that do not produce a lot of low rpm torque, so standing starts are not the car's strong point. This GTB could have been a six carb car that the driver just opened the throttle too much at low revs, or could have been a car with Tipo 130 cams and six carbs that would have normally bogged on large throttle openings at low revs.

All the other videos illustrate the driver "rolling" into the throttle at higher revs and are typical of 275 performance.

 

Thanks again, Dyke. The car in the top vid is indeed a 6 carb. It's s/n 7641 which is a 1965 Short Nose 275 GTB Competizione Clienti with Alloy Body. See link: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/7641.275gtbc.htm

Here it is in a different vid.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzm31x9EYYk[/ame]

 

Out of interest, does anyone know how much Ferrari Classiche would charge to rebody a car like 250GT Berlinetta SWB Comp/61 (SEFAC Hot Rod) s/n 2443 in the correct 1.1mm gauge super lightweight alloy body that it was born with?

 

Dyke, I have a list of 20 Comp/61 (SEFAC Hot Rod) cars that Paul Harris (thepinkumbrella) kindly gave me yesterday and s/n 2443 isn't on it. When you referred to s/n 2443 as a "1961 Comp car" did you mean that it is a 1961 Competizione rather than a SEFAC Hot Rod? Barchetta.cc list it as a steel bodied car with competition features, Comp/61 engine Type 168/61 and 46mm Webers. My question relates to my interpretation of your post, as a Competizione car from 1961 is of course a Comp 1961 car in its broader meaning if you understand where I'm coming from.

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/2443gt.250gt.htm

The reason I'm asking this is because I'm trying to find out how much the Comp/61 (SEFAC Hot Rod) SWBs actually weigh and as you said that s/n 2443 weighs 2407 lbs with a steel body (without spare wheel and toolkit but with a rollbar) all I need to do then is find out the differing weights of the bodies, which won't be easy I know, add the weight of the spare wheel, toolkit and subtract roll bar. If it's not a Comp/61/SEFAC then the maths won't work as the Comp/61 cars had major lightening and stiffening modifications to the chassis, magnesium parts in the engine, gutted interior and lots more.

 

IIRC there were some steel bodied 'full comp' cars.

That way, from the beginning.....

 

Does that mean that a "Competizione" SWB isn't necessarily an alloy bodied car?

 

All this is above my pay grade, But I thought there was one featured in Cavallino that was comp spec, all they way, yet a steel body??
Silver w/blue stripe, interior bare as a baby's azz.....

Maybe not one of the SEFAC cars, tho.

 

Was "Competizione" a word officially used by the Ferrari factory in period as a model nomenclature for any of the 250 GT Berlinetta SWB cars?

 

Steve: You have opened a massive can of worms. There is really no such thing as a SEFAC Hot Rod. This was a name given to certain 1961 SWBs by an author. The factory refered to ALL the 1961 Comp cars as chassis 539/61 Comp with Engine 168/61. ALL the 1961 Competition Berlinettas were built to the same mechanical specifications. My research related to these cars was initiated by my work on 2443. Most lists of these cars did not include 2443 because it was thought to have been originally steel bodied. This is not he case. My research file has over 200 pages of analysis of factory Build Sheets for these cars. I will try to summarize as briefly as possible:

1. ALL 1961 Competiton Berlinettas are identical mechanically ( allowing for the fact that some developmental changes were made as the 168/61 engine was produced).

2. There are 24 of these cars.

3. These cars are alloy bodied.

4. Not all the Build Sheets indicate the body material.

5. I discovered a new way to determine the type of body material used on SWBs. Alloy bodied cars have different front and rear springs from steel bodied cars!! This would make sense due to the lighter body weight of the alloy car. My anlaysis of over 100 sets of Build Sheets for SWBs provide over 96 % correlation between spring numbers and the confirmed type of body material (the other 4% include cars with special circumstances). Literally, evey Alloy SWB uses the same springs, that are unique to the alloy cars.

6. Now it is easy to tell which SWB was alloy and which was steel.

7. Some cars may have had some small variances in the bodywork details and this may have led authors in the past to call them SEFAC Hot Rods. I have not been able to investigate each alleged Hot Rod individually, but all the 24 cars are mechanically identical and originally aloy bodied.

I could go on and write a book on this , and someday I will.

 

Thank you very much for the clarifcation, Dyke. It's very much appreciated. You should definitely write the book. With your hands on Ferrari experience over a long period, extensive research and factory records, it sounds like most of the work has already been done. A book would be a great way to share your vast knowledge for everyone presently interested and as an archive for future generations.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoFRJbHXA2c&feature=g-vrec[/ame]

 

Steve: It is a stange and small world. The GTB/C in the video you just posted is, I believe, my old car!

 

Indeed it is your old car. Alloy bodied Ferrari 275 GTB/C s/n 09041. Congratulations for having owned such a beautiful and important Ferrari for so long. Only Ferrari Royalty have owned that one.

Details here: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/9041.275gtbc.htm

Paul Harris (thepinkumbrella) started an interesting thread about the carbs on 09041. See link below:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137529383&highlight=09041#post137529383