Electrical system malfunction question

It's due to a weak or failing battery. Search the forum for my posts regarding the Braille i48CS battery.

Once you install a better battery, such as the i48CS, all those system malfunction type error messages should stop.

Ray

 

It's most likely the battery. It's not related to temperature. When you drive the car, the battery is charged somewhat, even if it's in poor condition.

The battery from Ferrari is largely junk. Even with the tender constantly connected, people often have issues after only a year or so. If you installed a new battery and didn't use the tender, it would only take a couple of days for electrical system issues to manifest. A lot of people don't read the manual to their cars. Were you keeping the tender on constantly? If not, then new battery or not, it wouldn't take long for problems to re-surface.

If you want to insist that it's not the battery, that's up to you. My suggestion would be to search battery problem threads on the forums and then you'll start to see a reoccurring theme. The Braille i48CS works great in the car and should eliminate all the mysterious electrical issues that often come along with using a traditional car battery.

Ray

 

You can disconnect the battery and re-set the car. Read the section regarding reconnection in the manual.

While you're at it, get yourself a good digital volt meter and check the voltage on your current battery. Anything below 12.60 to 12.65 volts is probably not a good sign.

Ray

 

If you get the digital good multimeter ..check voltage when cranking as well

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

If it were me I would check the body grounds and power supply wires to the fuse blocks.

I would also look at a diagram of the ignition switch. Not sure if it is a points type switch and there is some resistance built up in it not allowing full voltage to some component.

I would also look at clock spring if all items broken are isolated to the steering wheel.

Working backwards it would be nice to know how Ferrari programmed the light to turn on but I suspect that won’t happen.

 

Check the actual battery voltage (to 2 decimal places) with a digital volt meter over a period of time. That will provide a bit more of a window into battery state. The other thing would be to get yourself a load tester and perform a load test and see if the voltage dips much below 10 volts. Same idea with checking the voltage when you kick over the starter.

Keep in mind also that most auto mechanics aren't electrical engineers. So, in most cases, even the best mechanics might not have a lot of depth of understanding regarding electrical systems, electrons or chemical based batteries. This can make diagnosing electrical issues difficult.

Another possibility is to wire in a DC shunt and see if there is any sign of an electrical short when the car is off. Normally the car should draw around 50 milliamperes when off, as I recall. If it's well above that, then there might be some other electrical issue or short that is draining electrons some place. This would be a last resort though.

With regard to the Braille battery, it's not just that it's a better battery. It's also that lithium cells can meet the sudden higher current demands more readily than other types of batteries - this helps prevent sudden (albeit momentary) voltage drops during starting, which can raise hell with advanced computer based ECU's and cause your electrical system malfunction error messages. Imagine a momentary current / voltage dip in the power going to your iMac or web sever? Not good. The computer in the Ferrari is just about as touchy.

Case and point: on our servers, I used to run not only a backup power UPS, but also a line isolation transformer; this combo acted as a line filter, surge protector and power backup to ensure constant steady power. Your Ferrari computers are just as delicate and sophisticated, yet they are powered by nothing more than a glorified Duracell flashlight battery. It's no wonder more owners don't have system malfunction error codes flashing around when they start their cars.

But I digress...

Try installing a Braille i48CS or CX and I bet all your mysterious system failure warnings will vanish into thin air.

Ray

 

Did anyone check codes stored .they may also point to wean battery or give more insight

Usually comm errors are voltage related etc

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

Ugh....

Install a Lithium battery already. That's your smoking gun, but you refuse to listen.

I had all the same sorts of issues with my 458. The first day or second day I was driving it, some bizarre codes flashed up on the dash and I had stop and restart the car, etc. Then about 1/3rd of the time when starting, it would give me electrical system failure / go to dealer. Or the car wouldn't turn over on the first try, but would on the second.

All these issues totally went away once I upgraded to the Braille i48CS. Never had another single issue.

You are looking for some random problem that doesn't exist. There is no loose ground. The windshield wipers play no role in all this and neither do your turn signals. The heat doesn't either. No body left the key on. Read your owner's manual and install a higher quality Lithium battery.

Ray

 

I totally understand where you're coming from. On older Ferraris, this was never much of an issue. With the 355 or 360, even a semi decent battery worked just fine. Heck, on my 360 I ran a $100 PC925 and the car could sit for weeks or even months with zero issues. But the modern electronics of the 458, for example, do require a much better power supply.

Modern Ferraris do have relatively large parasitic current draws. On a recent post I did the math and explained how many days a 60 Ah battery can last. You might want to go read that thread. But moreover you are also failing to understand the difference in normal batteries and Lithium batteries from a chemical standpoint and power delivery standpoint when it comes to parasitic draw and voltage levels over time. When you start the car, any battery is hit with a huge current draw and that can impact voltage levels across the entire system differently depending on how quickly a battery can move electrons. This is where a lithium excels, because even after sustaining extended current draw it can still answer that demand and mitigate voltage level drops a lot better. Also, a lithium battery has about 1/10th the natural power loss of a normal battery. That means a lithium can sit on the shelf for 30 days and only lose the equivalent of maybe 3 days worth of charge that a normal battery might.

Temperature can play a roll. I shouldn't have said it might not be temp related. Clearly temp can and does affect a battery's ability to deliver current. However, as long as the temp is above 55 or 60 degrees, then I wouldn't think it would be a major contributing factor.

Anyway, I think you're sort of looking at this through glasses which aren't helping you solve the issue. As I said before, your dealing with a very advanced computer controlled car here and you are powering the entire system off a battery that is barely more advanced than the D cell batteries my Dad used to keep in his flashlight next to his bed back in 1970. You need to step back and understand that you are dealing with a very advanced computer network in your car. Google how a CAN bus system works and maybe you'll start to gain a better appreciation for why I'm telling you that most likely the issue simply relates to using a car battery that was largely designed to start a 1960's Chevy truck.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

If you try to run any complex computer network off faulty power, be it a data center or car, you're going to encounter odd electrical issues. Even with perfect redundant / filtered power in a data center, sometimes servers still just blitz out and require resetting. A Lithium ion based battery is a far better match to the sophisticated electronics of the 458. It will raise the bar across the board when it comes to how reliably the entire electrical and computer system functions on your Ferrari. Install one and I think you'll see that the issues you are having suddenly disappear.

If you want to keep searching for the solution some place else, hey, knock yourself out.

Ray

 

I find this interesting.

can you sum up why the computers are so sensitive? Is there one piece missing that could make them better or is it the overall design?

Is it possible that all computers get a different voltage on start up? By this I mean is the battery and the sequence they start up or talk with each other on the Can Bus equal Voltage and ampere for all?

Does a bigger holding tank for voltage / amperage work better. Ie a bigger lead acid battery or does a more resilient battery that holds better such as Braille work better? I understand you can’t fit a bigger battery in the compartment but more of a theory / design question.

 

Silicon chips need electrons flowing sort like how your body needs blood flowing. Ask anyone who's ever had their heart malfunction how well it worked out. Same idea with computers and electricity.

Voltage levels are also usually pretty critical. Something which operates fine at 12 volts might not function correctly at 8 volts.

The main issue which causes the Ferrari to flash the electrical system failure message at start up is due (I would guess) to the sudden demand from the starter and the fact that it causes a voltage level drop due to the load being placed on the battery. Why is this less of an issue with a Lithium battery? In simple terms, it's because the chemistry of Lithium Ion batteries allow them to be more responsive to sudden current demands, such as cranking the starter.

Bigger isn't always better. Better is better. Lithium batteries are better. That's part of what JJP11 is overlooking here I think.

Ray

 

Do you have a digital volt meter? Reading the voltage level over the course of a few days will tell you a lot. Also, get yourself an analog voltage meter, attach it and start the car; you'll see the needle drop. Or set your digital meter to capture min and max values.

Ray

 

I mentioned that on post 6 ..

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

True enough except that there are no silicon chips that require 12V or even 8V!

As a retired computer engineer I’d at some ee designer somewhere just used a horrible power design architecture and it has a really bad “feature”!

Honestly there really is no good reason why any modern computer system should have this kind of issue! I suppose it is analogous to the sticky plastics problem that has gone on for way too long!

But I think you posted the discharge curves for both lead acid and lithium batteries and it was clear as day why lithium would work better: longer time above the threshold voltage!

That said I have NO personal experience with Li-on batteries in Ferraris but I expect I will transition to one the next time it becomes necessary!

SV


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, that's correct from the standpoint of the silicon part of things. I think a CPU is something like 2 or 3 volts right?

I was referring more to like a power supply output to the mother board, which is usually like 12 or 5 volts as I recall.

Ray

 

Okay, when you explain it more clearly like that, yeah that doesn't sound right at all. I don't think a Lithium Ion battery would solve this from how you explain it now.

Have you ever disconnected the battery to clear and reset the ECU's?

Also, if you have reconnected the battery, was the reconnection procedure followed in the manual?

From how you are describing it now, it sounds more like a sub ECU has failed some place or something. This sounds a lot like when the alarm circuit board of the 360's used to fail.

Has the dealer put the car on a diagnostic computer and checked the history?

Ray

 

Lots of good questions. The modern vehicle has +100 ECM (ECUs) and something like +100M lines of code. They are connected via multiple serial buses and on different network loops with firewall(s) in between. The ECUs are made by multiple tier 1 suppliers and not the car manufacturer. They run different complexities of operating systems and some none at all. There are also many wireless interfaces in the system. The power supply distribution through the harnesses can be problematic if not designed well regardless of the quality of the battery.

The manufacturer pays the tier suppliers for the ECUs but does not get the code. They usually have very few employees assigned to integrating and testing the units together. In 2015 a major American car company had exactly one person assigned. All of the testing is subcontracted out and low bidders win. Lots and lots of bugs and vulnerabilities.

To the OP: Power in a Ferrari is crappy as Ray can attest. Having a strong battery at startup is paramount. That said a $2500 battery is seldom required to fix electrical bugs but it is the best you could do to eliminate it as a problem source (but you have the issue of different charging algorithms between the standard alternator circuit and the lithium-specific charger). Your problem could still be a second bad battery or a flaky ECU or a bad ground, etc. A bad ground will send you in a circle for quite some time so that should be checked.

Best advice I have is give it to the dealer and don't take it back until it is error free. They can interrogate the ECUs with the proper equipment and potentially reset a flag or reflash some code perhaps. Its a newly purchased CPO car and their problem to solve. Try to get some compensation out of loss of use if you can. Depending on your relationship with the dealer you'll know how hard you can push that. Maybe set a reasonable time limit to get it fixed and free pick-up and delivery as a minimum. No one would argue that you deserve a trouble free car at purchase. Good luck post the solution.

 

I feel your pain. I recently had to track down an electrical short on my toyota wiring harness. Not fun.

The problem you're likely to run into is being able to find someone knowledgeable enough to track down the issue. From how you're describing it now, it's sounding more and more like failure of something on a circuit board and/or ECU.

On my 355 I once had a problem similar to this. The car would randomly flash a "slow down" warning, even if I was driving slow in town, like at 35 MPH. The dealer tracked it down to a faulty catalytic converter ECU. They explained that the issue was the housing around the ECU module had a tendency to separate and this allowed water to get in and corrode the circuit board.

I'm wondering if you might have a similar type situation lurking around in your car.

Electricity can be strange. Just research collapsed solder joints for example. Sometimes very minor issues can trigger bizarre electrical issues.

The other thing to be aware of is this:

Many add-on electrical devices, which can seem very benign, can actually cause issues that you might not suspect. I'm talking something as simple as a USB cigarette adapter or a garage door opener or radar detector being in the car. Do you have anything extra plugged in any place or anything along those lines? Sometimes the cheap chinese circuit boards can cause issues and/or throw off RF that can cause problems. Even something inside the garage where you park, anything nearby the car that might be putting out a strong electrical field?

On that same subject, does the error occur every time you turn off the car and turn it back on, or only the very first time?

Ray