Electrification

craze · Jul 21, 2022

Even if ferrari doesnt im sure someone could replace the cells as by that time if manufacturers dont still sell battery packs it would be a big aftermarket business

f308gtsi · Jul 21, 2022

The challenge is the the vehicles are specifically tuned to the battery packs to detect irregularities and either shut down immediately or gracefully over time to protect the vehicle. It will be interesting to see how they develop. But the idea that you can get 20+ mpg in a high powered Ferrari is a great accomplishment.

MANDALAY · Jul 21, 2022

kbaillie said: ↑

I’m gonna come right out and speak my mind: electrification is exciting!

With 25% of the general population considering an EV for their next car, that notion isn’t exactly super controversial but, within this crowd, I know there are a lot of people who would disagree. And that’s okay. I, for one, feel that it’s an incredible time to be alive!

I lived my youth as a die-hard petrolhead. I modified cars in my teens, did track days in my 20s as a “BMW Guy” (2 M Coupes and an E46 M3) and instructed/raced SCCA in my 30s. Even scored a few wins and podiums in Spec Miatas that I built with my own hands. I love petrol cars that I shift with my own hands and feet.

Then, in 2012, my boss (a well-known director whom I idolized) told me he’d pre-ordered a Tesla Model S. The car hadn’t come out yet, but I went to test drive one - mostly to collect ammo so I could talk him out of his order. How silly could he be to buy into this non-shifting, heavy, soundless, soulless abomination?!? Well, that test drive was revelatory, and ended with me placing a pre-order with Tesla at the end of it. I was instantly hooked on the EV concept, and took delivery of my first Model S in 2013!

Ever since then, I’ve bounced in and out of gasoline cars while maintaining an EV as my daily driver. The 458 Spider has been my favorite of the lot - such soul and an amazing soundtrack! That said, I couldn’t help but feel a little flat every time I nailed it, summoning a symphony of glorious noises, but feeling less punch than I did our Model 3 or Model Y Performance variants.

A couple of weeks ago, mere days apart, two additional revelations presented themselves:

1) I took delivery of a Tesla Model S Plaid. Holy cow - talk about vicious straight line speed! The thing will literally harm passengers if I don’t warn them before punching it. It’s savage, and doesn’t let up until the limiter kicks in at ~170mph. I’ve never felt anything like it, on or off track. And it’s a *good car.* Solid, upgradable, comfy, glorious sound system, full of fun tech and drives itself when I want it to.

2) Ferrari graced me with a test drive in the 296 GTB. Oh man, the sounds the thing makes, and the punch it has. Sure, it doesn’t match the brutality of the Plaid, although it does make the hairs on my neck lift in a way that the 458 did (and then some). Nobody NEEDS a car this fast on the street, but I’ll take it! And, after having driven it, I think partial electrification has undoubtedly improved the car. More torque down low, faster shifts and the ability to sneak out of my neighbored unnoticed. The penalty? I seriously couldn’t attest to a single one vs the 458. Sure, the turbos and GPF mute the sound a bit, but the *quality* of its noise is still there in spades. And it’s so much fun! I love it!!!

In 2012, I was very worried that electrification would be the death of driving passion. 10 years later, and with as many years of ownership to back it up, I can confidently say that I am no longer worried about the automotive EV apocalypse. Ferrari has made a hybrid that not only escapes being described as a compromise, but it’s made one that I think is truly great. Contrary to some of the reviews out there, I believe the car couldn’t have risen to what it is without electrification.

I, for one, am beyond excited for, and in LOVE with, the 296! I think history will see it as the connective tissue between the ICE and full-EV Ferrari eras, and it will be mega-special as a result: the best of both worlds.

I’m sure a lot of folk will disagree with me, saying that EVs are appliances like iPhones and TVs. But every day I drive my Plaid is a day I fall more in love with it. And, when I’m daydreaming, I don’t think about the 458 - I have visions of the 296.

The future is different, yes, and it’s also SO good! I’m just glad I found a way to connect with the EV of it all - get engaged with and excited for what the tech brings to the table. Ferrari is clearly leading the way in keeping (even enhancing) the driving experience using cutting-edge EV tech. Bravo!
Click to expand...

All sounds good but one major difference. Non EV cars you can fix them yourself if you have the ability.

EV will be a throw away item. From day 1 the battery starts losing its life. I dont think any of the EV hybrid range will ever be considered as collectible.

MANDALAY · Jul 21, 2022

kbaillie said: ↑

I heard a bunch of the reviews wonder the same thing: does the hybrid unit really make the car better? After driving it, I felt the answer was a pretty clear "yes."

Most noticeably, the 296 felt more responsive on the throttle than the 488/F8. This makes logical sense, since the hybrid electric motor is able to serve up 100% of its torque instantly, whereas the turbos in the older cars need time to spool up. Lag in the 488/F8 is really minor, of course, but it's still there. The 296 has no perceivable lag from what I could feel, so I'd score that as a solid win for hybridization.

Also, from a pure power output perspective, it's hard to argue that it's not also a win to get 100hp more from a car that's only 77lbs heavier (which doesn't count as "significant" in my book).

As for comparing to the 458, you're absolutely right in terms of power delivery. The reason I make the comparison is because I personally chose to keep the 458 over swapping for a 488 or F8. The additional torque of the newer turbo V8s wasn't enough to make up for the things they sacrificed, and I love in a car, namely responsiveness and noise. The 296 has finally convinced me - and did so by a mile - to say goodbye to the 458. And I think electrification had a lot to do with putting it over the edge in comparison with one of the best "analog" Ferrari's of all time.

Hopefully I'll feel the same once I've owned it for a few years!
Click to expand...

Lets see if the battery pack lasts as long as your 458 has. I doubt it. IMO there is no way I would trade a 458 that you love ( I personally dont ) and be a Guinee pig on Ferraris first Hybrid efforts.

MANDALAY · Jul 21, 2022

craze said: ↑

Even if ferrari doesnt im sure someone could replace the cells as by that time if manufacturers dont still sell battery packs it would be a big aftermarket business
Click to expand...

Yes at $100,000 PLUS

The cells are not like you std 12 volt battery. The car would have to be taken fully apart. This will be a Ferrari job and cost a crap load.

craze · Jul 21, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

All sounds good but one major difference. Non EV cars you can fix them yourself if you have the ability.

EV will be a throw away item. From day 1 the battery starts losing its life. I dont think any of the EV hybrid range will ever be considered as collectible.
Click to expand...

Some good points

However i find tesla a bit like apple
Eg they dont want anyone to repair it, you are essentially only ever leasing it as u always upgrade to a new one, so much tech im sure it will profile u and be useful for gov to collect data
I dont want to be a part of it but thats just me

craze · Jul 21, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

Yes at $100,000 PLUS

The cells are not like you std 12 volt battery. The car would have to be taken fully apart. This will be a Ferrari job and cost a crap load.
Click to expand...

Hey? Is that correct? Its somehow hidden inside the chassis never to be replaced??

MANDALAY · Jul 21, 2022

paulchua said: ↑

Well said. I've talked to a lot of folks that love the car. (No need to stroke a live horse)

I was curious about why some folks hate the car.

I've concluded it's come down to 3 categories.

1) Folks that conclude all modern cars are poo (gated is usually a good delimiter.)
2) Political reasons (it could be Zeus's chariot, and it wouldn't matter.)
3) Their car is the 'best' of all time (everything that comes after is automatically crap.)

I could only sympathize with #1; each successive generation, you often lose something (as well as gain) - so it's objectively a valid point. The folks that hate it for political reasons (#2) - are a sign of the times. #3 It's cute when you see it.
Click to expand...

Add another one the real reason. Why wont Ferrari include in their factory warrantee like others that the battery pac have a 10 year unlimited KM warrantee.

Im sure you know the answer. Ever spoken to a La Ferrari owner challenged with a battery cost to replace ? $250,000

09Scuderia · Jul 21, 2022

Telsa Roadster is going to be very interesting if they ever build it.....

MANDALAY · Jul 21, 2022

craze said: ↑

Hey? Is that correct? Its somehow hidden inside the chassis never to be replaced??
Click to expand...

Its built into the chassis. Its plumbed for water cooling then add all those massive thick cables.

There was a video I found but have lost it. Let me see if i can find it again.

MANDALAY · Jul 21, 2022

craze said: ↑

Some good points

However i find tesla a bit like apple
Eg they dont want anyone to repair it, you are essentially only ever leasing it as u always upgrade to a new one, so much tech im sure it will profile u and be useful for gov to collect data
I dont want to be a part of it but thats just me
Click to expand...

Thats the fact that I was pointing out. Its a throw away. A well looked after 308 will last forever. A hybrid will be battery gone throw it away. The second hand market for these will NOT be in demand like non hybrid Ferraris.

This throw away scenario ild rather play with a $60K KIA not a $750 k Ferrari.

paulchua · Jul 22, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

Add another one the real reason. Why wont Ferrari include in their factory warrantee like others that the battery pac have a 10 year unlimited KM warrantee.

Im sure you know the answer. Ever spoken to a La Ferrari owner challenged with a battery cost to replace ? $250,000
Click to expand...

LaF recently went for 5+M

that’s less then 5% it’s total cost

it’s relative to an engine out

paulchua · Jul 22, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

Thats the fact that I was pointing out. Its a throw away. A well looked after 308 will last forever. A hybrid will be battery gone throw it away. The second hand market for these will NOT be in demand like non hybrid Ferraris.

This throw away scenario ild rather play with a $60K KIA not a $750 k Ferrari.
Click to expand...

I mean you’re talking about the LaF. If the battery replacement cost for the 296 is also 250k, you have a point.

paulchua · Jul 22, 2022

f308gtsi said: ↑

I think the 296 is a great car but I’m wondering 10 or 15 years down the road when the battery pack dies out, will Ferrari still make replacement ones? Otherwise, it could compromise long term values for their new line of hybrids.
Click to expand...

I think of it like edelbrock

paulchua · Jul 22, 2022

craze said: ↑

Some good points

However i find tesla a bit like apple
Eg they dont want anyone to repair it, you are essentially only ever leasing it as u always upgrade to a new one, so much tech im sure it will profile u and be useful for gov to collect data
I dont want to be a part of it but thats just me
Click to expand...

The Tesla S has basically been the same car for over 10 years. I mean one just hit a million miles this year.

I never owned a single daily driver car for over a decade.

kbaillie · Jul 22, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

Lets see if the battery pack lasts as long as your 458 has. I doubt it. IMO there is no way I would trade a 458 that you love ( I personally dont ) and be a Guinee pig on Ferraris first Hybrid efforts.
Click to expand...

Oh, I sure hope the battery pack lasts as long as my 458 has! My boss has an early Model S (2012) that's older than my 458 and is still humming along. In fact, he was just "complaining" to me this morning about how the car continues to be so reliable and has retained 88% of its original range, thus giving him little reason to upgrade to a newer car. As is mentioned in this thread, there are Teslas with over 1m miles on them now, and several over 500k on an original battery pack. Hopefully Ferrari's battery technology today is better than Tesla's was 10 years ago...

Who knows what the future will bring, or what the resale market for hybrid Ferraris will be like. I personally don't think the hybrid tech will reduce desirability one iota, and repairability will end up being much like anything else on a Ferrari. The radio/navi unit cost me $15k to replace in my 458, so I don't expect anything to ever be cheap with 'em, but I don't see it being six figures either, especially given the relatively small battery capacity and plummeting cost of battery production. Just my opinion. Only time will tell who was overly optimistic or pessimistic!

gds7368 · Jul 24, 2022

kbaillie said: ↑

I’m gonna come right out and speak my mind: electrification is exciting!

With 25% of the general population considering an EV for their next car, that notion isn’t exactly super controversial but, within this crowd, I know there are a lot of people who would disagree. And that’s okay. I, for one, feel that it’s an incredible time to be alive!

I lived my youth as a die-hard petrolhead. I modified cars in my teens, did track days in my 20s as a “BMW Guy” (2 M Coupes and an E46 M3) and instructed/raced SCCA in my 30s. Even scored a few wins and podiums in Spec Miatas that I built with my own hands. I love petrol cars that I shift with my own hands and feet.

Then, in 2012, my boss (a well-known director whom I idolized) told me he’d pre-ordered a Tesla Model S. The car hadn’t come out yet, but I went to test drive one - mostly to collect ammo so I could talk him out of his order. How silly could he be to buy into this non-shifting, heavy, soundless, soulless abomination?!? Well, that test drive was revelatory, and ended with me placing a pre-order with Tesla at the end of it. I was instantly hooked on the EV concept, and took delivery of my first Model S in 2013!

Ever since then, I’ve bounced in and out of gasoline cars while maintaining an EV as my daily driver. The 458 Spider has been my favorite of the lot - such soul and an amazing soundtrack! That said, I couldn’t help but feel a little flat every time I nailed it, summoning a symphony of glorious noises, but feeling less punch than I did our Model 3 or Model Y Performance variants.

A couple of weeks ago, mere days apart, two additional revelations presented themselves:

1) I took delivery of a Tesla Model S Plaid. Holy cow - talk about vicious straight line speed! The thing will literally harm passengers if I don’t warn them before punching it. It’s savage, and doesn’t let up until the limiter kicks in at ~170mph. I’ve never felt anything like it, on or off track. And it’s a *good car.* Solid, upgradable, comfy, glorious sound system, full of fun tech and drives itself when I want it to.

2) Ferrari graced me with a test drive in the 296 GTB. Oh man, the sounds the thing makes, and the punch it has. Sure, it doesn’t match the brutality of the Plaid, although it does make the hairs on my neck lift in a way that the 458 did (and then some). Nobody NEEDS a car this fast on the street, but I’ll take it! And, after having driven it, I think partial electrification has undoubtedly improved the car. More torque down low, faster shifts and the ability to sneak out of my neighbored unnoticed. The penalty? I seriously couldn’t attest to a single one vs the 458. Sure, the turbos and GPF mute the sound a bit, but the *quality* of its noise is still there in spades. And it’s so much fun! I love it!!!

In 2012, I was very worried that electrification would be the death of driving passion. 10 years later, and with as many years of ownership to back it up, I can confidently say that I am no longer worried about the automotive EV apocalypse. Ferrari has made a hybrid that not only escapes being described as a compromise, but it’s made one that I think is truly great. Contrary to some of the reviews out there, I believe the car couldn’t have risen to what it is without electrification.

I, for one, am beyond excited for, and in LOVE with, the 296! I think history will see it as the connective tissue between the ICE and full-EV Ferrari eras, and it will be mega-special as a result: the best of both worlds.

I’m sure a lot of folk will disagree with me, saying that EVs are appliances like iPhones and TVs. But every day I drive my Plaid is a day I fall more in love with it. And, when I’m daydreaming, I don’t think about the 458 - I have visions of the 296.

The future is different, yes, and it’s also SO good! I’m just glad I found a way to connect with the EV of it all - get engaged with and excited for what the tech brings to the table. Ferrari is clearly leading the way in keeping (even enhancing) the driving experience using cutting-edge EV tech. Bravo!
Click to expand...

I read your comments with particular interest as I daily drive a Tesla S Plaid alternating with F12 on good weather days (Ohio) ... with a 296 test drive this Friday ... wish me luck!

MANDALAY · Jul 24, 2022

paulchua said: ↑

I mean you’re talking about the LaF. If the battery replacement cost for the 296 is also 250k, you have a point.
Click to expand...

When carbon wheels cost $50,000 a set of 4 with absolutely no labour cost ild say the battery would be in excess of $100,000

kbaillie · Jul 25, 2022

gds7368 said: ↑

I read your comments with particular interest as I daily drive a Tesla S Plaid alternating with F12 on good weather days (Ohio) ... with a 296 test drive this Friday ... wish me luck!
Click to expand...

Excited to hear your thoughts once you've had a go in the 296! I've never driven an F12, so the gap between your "average" ICE reference point and mine (all V8s) may yield a very different impression.

As for the Plaid, I'm starting to wonder if I'll ever get used to the power. It seems to exceed the human body's inherent expectations for the kind forces it should be subjected to...

paulchua · Jul 25, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

When carbon wheels cost $50,000 a set of 4 with absolutely no labour cost ild say the battery would be in excess of $100,000
Click to expand...

Plausible, but I have not seen any official battery replacement costs quotes for the 296.

MANDALAY · Jul 26, 2022

craze said: ↑

Hey? Is that correct? Its somehow hidden inside the chassis never to be replaced??
Click to expand...

Finally found the picture.

Below is FS90. I believe the 296 has the same skeleton but the battery is much smaller. Accessible ? I highly doubt it.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

JJ77 · Jul 26, 2022

paulchua said: ↑

LaF recently went for 5+M

that’s less then 5% it’s total cost

it’s relative to an engine out
Click to expand...

Absolutely… all this $100,000 rumours is just it must be half the cost of the LAFerrari battery.. I heave heard 22,000 Euros from a German Dealer and 18,000 Pounds from UK Dealer.. seems pretty fair to me when you consider the cost of other parts on previous Ferraris. Proof will be when one is replaced out of warranty or after a 10 year period and someone posts about it. With the numbers of 296 being built these batteries will come down in price and no way a car manufacturer is putting out $350,000 car with a battery liability of $100,000.. LAFerrari 918 Spyder P1, that’s a different story based on numbers built and cost of vehicle..

paulchua · Jul 26, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

Finally found the picture.

Below is FS90. I believe the 296 has the same skeleton but the battery is much smaller. Accessible ? I highly doubt it.

View attachment 3368788
Click to expand...

JJ77 said: ↑

Absolutely… all this $100,000 rumours is just it must be half the cost of the LAFerrari battery.. I heave heard 22,000 Euros from a German Dealer and 18,000 Pounds from UK Dealer.. seems pretty fair to me when you consider the cost of other parts on previous Ferraris. Proof will be when one is replaced out of warranty or after a 10 year period and someone posts about it. With the numbers of 296 being built these batteries will come down in price and no way a car manufacturer is putting out $350,000 car with a battery liability of $100,000.. LAFerrari 918 Spyder P1, that’s a different story based on numbers built and cost of vehicle..
Click to expand...

This is all hypothetical,

Next time I stop by my dealership, I'll just ask my buddy. I'll let folks know.

Cheers

JTSE30 · Jul 26, 2022

MANDALAY said: ↑

Finally found the picture.

Below is FS90. I believe the 296 has the same skeleton but the battery is much smaller. Accessible ? I highly doubt it.
Click to expand...

Here are some more for your collection:

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MANDALAY · Jul 26, 2022

JJ77 said: ↑

Absolutely… all this $100,000 rumours is just it must be half the cost of the LAFerrari battery.. I heave heard 22,000 Euros from a German Dealer and 18,000 Pounds from UK Dealer.. seems pretty fair to me when you consider the cost of other parts on previous Ferraris. Proof will be when one is replaced out of warranty or after a 10 year period and someone posts about it. With the numbers of 296 being built these batteries will come down in price and no way a car manufacturer is putting out $350,000 car with a battery liability of $100,000.. LAFerrari 918 Spyder P1, that’s a different story based on numbers built and cost of vehicle..
Click to expand...

How about labour cost ?

Add that to the equation and you will be up there.

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