Electromotive Timing settings 79 308

Dan,

I have been running the Automotive Wintec3 system on my 308QV for several years, and have pretty much dialed everything in. If you PM me, I'll send over my latest .bin file.

 

Hey PAD - been having a hell of a time to get my electromotive setup working properly... sounds like you got yours all figured out? would love to test you bin file on mine and see what happens.

my email is [email protected]

Tks. Donato

 

My setting will only be of limited help - I run P6 cams. That said, idle is about 14 and runs 34 degrees at 5K like the stocker. I have tended to lift the curve so that most of the advance is in by 3K.
HTH
Philip

 

why not call electromotive and talk to Fred? I have been using electromotive since R88 came out and they make great stand alone systems.

 

what is this electromotive timing you speak of?

 

Electromotive is an engine management system. Check the out at http://www.electromotive-inc.com

 

Would just like to hear from anyone who's already done it. Especially WRT to where folks located the different sensors. I'm going to start tearing into it this weekend. I'm upgrading from an HPX so the timing wheel is already done. I plan on doing a full sequential setup using one of the old distributers/caps and a home-made wheel to pick up the Cam timing.

cheers!

- Frank
'85 Cabrio/Euro
http://www.employees.org/~fty

 

Back when I was going to put the electromotive on my old 78 308 (now sold), I collected a weath of information about timing. I'll share it in the next posts. Where I'm able to identify the authors to give credit, I do.

--Mike

 

Reply 1

Michael
There are a variety of solutions as this list archives and the ferrarichat archives show. For my 77 308, my bias was to go to electronic ignition for its reliability and cost effectiveness when the prospect of distributor caps, rotors, points (x4), coils replacement etc is taken into account. I kept all the original parts enabling a potential future owner to return to stock if they desire.

On the various solutions, I elected to go with Nick Sciania’s crank triggered Electromotive HPX set up. I was swayed by the one stop shop, multiple solutions in the field and good reputation for support with install and tuning and the reputation and experience others have had with Electromotive HPX/TEC 2 or 3 solutions. The tach correction parts are included and are a simple mount (in my case, at the top of the trunk). Nick is helpful with support and has, I believe, significant experience in this set up. I have called him 7 or 8 months after install and sure enough there is a return call, usually within 24 hours.

The HPX set up has some level of tune-ability of (the shape of the) ignition curves and heavy duty spark and, given it’s triggered from the crank, avoids any (claimed) spark scatter associated with cam driven solutions. Views about the last point seem to be akin to religion in some forums. The complete set up is about $1500 plus install. Other solutions may be cheaper.

I have had no problems with the system after the initial set up (although one of the coils was split on receipt and was replaced by Electromotive with no hassle). With a heftier spark voltage, the plug gap can be increased – I run 0.035 (versus 0.025 stock). Opinions on plugs to use with the set up range significantly (I run NGK 6’s on advice from Continental Autosports and from NGK).

On tuning, Nick recommended a set of timing settings which generally have a bit more advance low down in the rev range than stock to help lift the torque curve. For example,
at peak torque (5000) I run 5 degrees of advance more than stock (39 versus 34) and by 7000 – 8000 rpm I am about equal to stock (40 – 42 total advance as I recall). Where I have corresponded with other listers, they seem to run broadly similar numbers. I have not dynoed the car before and after, but others have (again, see archives) and generally good results have been achieved.

There is an option to add a MAP sensor which dials in more advance with higher levels of vacuum (essentially aiding combustion efficiency and thus fuel mileage at cruise). I have not done this to date (but am considering).

Hope this helps
Philip

 

Reply #2 (John Miles)

I've run both the Norwood MSD single-distributor conversion (30K miles in a
'77 308GTB) and Nick Scianna's Electromotive HPX conversion (about 6K miles so far in a '76 308GTB). They are both excellent systems and are indisputably less twitchy than the Rube Goldberg kludge that passes for stock.

Of the two, the HPX in particular is a tweaker's dream due to the ease of adjusting the timing. I don't have enough mileage under my belt to proclaim it "reliable," but I don't have any reason to think it won't be. Seems to be a high-quality piece of work all-around, with a price tag (about $1.5K with installation labor) to match.

I have not been back on the dyno since the HPX installation, but as far as the seat of the pants goes, I haven't seen any real benefit to going far beyond the stock timing of 34 degrees advance at 5000 RPM. I'm currently running 10 degrees at 1000 RPM, 25 at 3000 RPM, and 35 at 8000 RPM.

On a carbureted car, running too much advance at 1000 RPM makes it hard to synchronize the carbs because the throttle-rest screws have to come almost all the way out to keep the idle speed from soaring. Running too much advance at 3000 RPM makes the engine feel and sound -- I'm not sure how to put it, but the term I'd use is "stressed" or "overworked" under acceleration. No more powerful, maybe a little less 'lively' and more raucous-sounding through the air intake. That being said, I have not heard any pinging under any conditions with the HPX, although Stewart Chung's car with the same ignition exhibits a small, probably harmless amount of pinging due to his higher-than-stock compression ratio.

I haven't yet tried more than 35-36 degrees total advance at 8000 RPM because that sort of testing needs to be done on a dyno to keep from fooling oneself.

The other thing about the HPX ignition is that at least with my car, the recommended mechanical advance value of 0 degrees gave rise to a loud backfire at least once every few cold starts. This seems to be due to the fact that the HPX is a so-called "waste spark" system that fires each plug on its cylinder's exhaust stroke as well as its compression stroke. If the exhaust valves are open or about to open when the plug fires, any unburned fuel (such as is present during cranking) will go 'boom.' The HPX manual suggests retarding the mechanical timing (or maybe advancing it; they're rather vague on the subject) to fix this symptom.

On the ring that's used to provide the HPX's timing signal, 0 degrees mechanical advance corresponds to the leading edge of the 11th tooth from the gap in the ring where two teeth are missing, in the (clockwise) direction of crank rotation as seen at the harmonic balancer. In other words, the ignition 'sees' the gap fly past the pickup sensor, counts 11 pulses after that, and assumes the engine is at cylinder #1 TDC.

Unfortunately, the HPX manual has a misprint on page 5 where it tells you that you can retard the mechanical advance 6 degrees by aligning the ring so that the sensor is positioned 12 teeth away from the gap in the direction of rotation. If you think about it, that actually ADVANCES the mechanical timing by 6 degrees, because the gap will cross the sensor one tooth earlier in the cycle. On my car at least, that makes the backfiring even worse.

In my case, I ended up installing the ring with the 9th tooth at the crank sensor, to provide a total of 12 degrees mechanical retardation during cranking. This eliminated the "bang" almost every time; it still happens maybe one cold start in ten or twelve, but it's no longer very loud, and I'm not going to break the Loctite seals on the ring setscrews again to monkey with it any further. The HPX tech I spoke with didn't seem overly interested in correcting the manual, which is a shame because it can confuse people like myself who don't always think these things through at first.

-- jm

 

That's all I can seem to find right now. Hopefully there are some numbers in there for you. A lot of these were taken from the FerrariList.