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Engine in car timing belt pic's for 355?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by tbakowsky, Apr 11, 2004.

  1. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Tom
    What happened to the fellow that was going to take the pictures of the timing belt job, that was going to be done on his 355 with the engine in the car?

    I rember he was across the pond and was going to take it to Verdi(I think) to have it done. I'm really interested in these pic's. Does anybody know if he got it done? Or is he going to wait a bit longer.

    Tom.
     
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  3. MarkCollins

    MarkCollins F1 Rookie
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    Jul 2, 2002
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    tom

    tonyh I think?
     
  4. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Dec 23, 2002
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    Hi tom,
    that's me ! Car's due to go to Verdi next week for the cams to replaced in situ.I'll post some pics when the work's been done.
    Regards
     
  5. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

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    I didn't take pictures while there last week as I knew Tony was going, but I did watch this being done.

    There were a few little interesting tips and tricks, but basically the whole belt change looked very easy and there was so much room in there that, once shown the tips and tricks, it seemed like an easy job to do. Nothing needed to be forced in doing the change.

    There was also plenty of space to sort out all the tensioners etc and take a look at all the other ancilliaries in and around that area.

    Very impressive. Indeed it looked to make significantly more sense than removing the whole engine to do it.

    I'm pretty sure I was told that not only is this perfectly safe, but it's also a way to do it noted by the factory.
     
  6. felix66

    felix66 Karting

    Feb 21, 2004
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    London

    With so much space it make sense to do it wiht the engine in the car - what I can't figure is why the dealers wont do this?
     
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  8. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Purely for £££'s , as far as i can see. £1400 + vat @ Maranello etc, £800 @ Verdi.....As long as the main dealers keep insisting the Manual says engine out, they can continue to charge higher servicing prices.
     
  9. felix66

    felix66 Karting

    Feb 21, 2004
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    London
    £800 inc?
     
  10. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

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    No, 795+VAT but including all parts.

    I believe that the manual doesn't necessarily state that the engine *has* to come out.

    Also, other problems can be caused when the engine comes out. I'm a numpty where technical car matters are concerned, but I can usually figure out when stuff makes sense.

    In taking the engine out, you need to disconnect the loom etc, and one area where this is done is via the main bulkhead.

    My car had a "slight" problem with its engine loom (read - it had to be replaced after shorting out), and the cause of this was incorrect or no placement of protective grommets in the bulkhead area (as determined by the main dealer who fixed it). And when I saw where the loom goes, it was easy to see how mistakes could be made in this area (though still not acceptable).

    Leaving the engine in, I'm now of the belief that you can see if there are any other major problem areas (i.e. inspect to see if the engine might have to come out at some point), but also do not disturb potentially fragile components.

    The only cambelt service my car has had was done by a main dealer.
     
  11. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    I'd like to see a breakdown of the costs to do it the "tank out" way.

    By the time you've changed the oil, coolant, AC gas, fuel filter/s etc, the labour would be higher for an in situ belt change I'm sure. And for presentaion of your work, the engine out option is far better for cleaning and checking more things....remember, servicing is ONLY prevention, NOT cure.

    The only situation where an "in situ" job would be beneficial, would be when a dealer is doing an "absolute minimum" to cover a comeback, or promote a sale perhaps, ie, when NO peripherals are to be touched.

    I also think pulling fuel tanks out is highly dangerous, in fact, there are rules in many area that demand safe draining techniques that are rarely followed........

    It's easily possible to do engine out "belt only" services, which include A/C, engine oil, coolant and brake fluid changes in two big days, subject to parts on shelf and no faults found.
     
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  13. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

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    Having been present while this was being done on a car, I honestly believe that you could see as much on the car asyou could with the engine out. The car is on a lift .

    Draining and taking out the tank was, I think, about a 45min job. In taking the engine out, do you not have to disconnect fuel lines?

    The service I was watching was belts only, but I'm told the whole process is one day.

    I'm very far from being an expert in these matters, but the procedure didn't look flawed and I know from experience that the standard of workmanship of some main dealers doing things by their book is not necessarily that great. If I, as a numpty, could see every part in the engine bay clearly with the engine in situ, why take it out?
     
  14. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

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    PS I'm by no means trying to make my comments a definitve "how to". Am very interested in general opinions on these things. But I have seen it done. I've never actually seen a main dealer do it their way...
     
  15. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Yes I have also seen impropperly seated gromments causeing shorted wiring. I had one that caused a fuel injector to dump fuel into number 6 cylinder. I went nuts for days trying to find the cause. But I found like you stated, wiring shorting agaist the bulkhead/firewall behined the seats.
    But this is the mechanics fault for not doing a propper job. Not the cars.

    I have dropped the tanks out of a 355 once before and it was not a fun job to say the least.

    But it still seems odd to me that Ferrari would make the removal of the engine so easy and designed the car around this concept, if it was not the correct way to do the servicing on these cars. Just think how much tighter a 348/355 would be if that rear section was a non-removable frame like the BB512 or the later 512TR.
     
  16. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

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    Far be it from me to query why Ferrari designed the car the way they did.

    I mean, if they were *really* thinking about making it easy to service the things, they'd have put service hatches in the bulkhead or put all the timing gear on the end or something, surely? Or maybe even not used elastic bands to sort cam timing out and put chains on??

    Perhaps it was just a relaisation that sports cars used hard often have reasons to have their engines removed, so they designed a way to do it.

    From what I could see, tha vast majority of servicing/preventative maintenance didn't *need* to have the engine removed.

    It didn't look too ugly taking the tank out. You have to be careful draining it (obviously), but other than that?

    ????

    PS I agree that the grommet thing is poor workmanship. 100%. But if a job involves items that are trickier than they perhaps need to be, it seems logical that the likelihood of mistakes being made is increased? None of which excuses franchised main dealers screwing up like that.
     
  17. Diablo

    Diablo Formula Junior

    If Ferrari doesn't want you to take the engine out to do a belt change,Why the yellow frame stand at the dealer???

    In the 355, you would need to move the engine far back enough to get the front pulley off. Fuel Tank removal would not be necessary(The frame is in the way of the pulley). Remove engine and transmission mounts. Remove exhaust,rear bumper, engine wiring to be removed from firewall(ex for 95's).
    Remove axel shafts(gotta slide that whole sucker back).Lets not forget the shifter and coolant hoses. Oh yeah the O2 sensors will hit also,remove them.
    Now slide the thing(engine and transmission) back while not letting it drop.

    Good Luck to anyone of you that does this...

    The way to go,in my opinion is to get the sub-frame out by 12 bolts up front,4 at the top,and 4 at the back.

    This way you can see if your cats are shot too...
     
  18. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

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    All I can say is, I've seen it done and all the stuff you note that *has* to be done, doesn't. Honestly.

    I have NO link at all with the company who did the belts this way. ALL they've done for me so far is fit a Tubi and showed me round their shop and a work in progress (the belts). It was really interesting stuff.

    As I noted above, I can see when things make sense, even if I'm no mechanic (cars are not *that* difficult at teh end of the day) and the provision of a yellow engine stand is not enough of a sensible reason why the engine *must* come out to do this particular task.

    As noted, I can see many reasons why engines *must* come out, and no doubt that dinky yellow stand (wonder how much Ferrari SpA charge for those :) ), and that well designed removable sub-frame must be a Godsend then.

    Here's an alternative theory (and please don't assume I'm trying to convince everyone to have their cars done this way, it's purely an alternative!)...the engine on these cars is what you pay the vast majority of the entry fee for.

    Dealers usually have nice windows into their service areas where you can see the cars being worked on etc etc.

    Little looks more impressive than a 355 powerplant out of its hole and in the open. Similarly, nothing looks WAY more complicated than half dismantling a car for what should be pretty routine servicing (routine as in the parts that are used mean you *have* to do it once every 3yrs at least). I know these are feelings I had when I looked in a main dealers service area.

    With these feelings in mind, you start to accept just why a belts serviced could cost well North of 3000GBP. It looks complicated and time consuming enough to cost that much.

    If you simply saw the car on a ramp, with some guy's legs visible as half his body was up in the internals of a car, and a "not particularly big" day later the car was off the ramp and ready, would you be inclined to stump up that same wedge of cash?

    I repeat, I have no link to the service agent concerned other than that mentioned, and I have seen this job being done. Nothing is forced or bent.

    PS The spark plugs on these cars aren't *that* easy to get to without a lot of fiddling and grazed knuckles. It'd probably be easier to change these using the nice removable sub-frame and the yellow stand too. But I don't think main dealers do, do they?
     

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